Just had a blazing row with dd

[steppemum]

So, dd is gender non binary, has changed her name and want sot use them/they pronouns.
This is the end of a long process of about 4 years, she is 15.

I am supportive up to a point (she can call herself what she wants)
But I have gently pushed back against the theory behind it, as I am GC.

We have just had a blazing row. She said that 70% of the victims of DV were men.
From a 'very big and respected men's rights group' that have 'proved' that these are correct and that men's rights don't get any media attention, like the poor bloke who died in Australia at the hand of his wife and she didn't go to jail.

I'm afraid I flipped my lid. Lost my temper and gave a a full force lecture about feminism and the oppression of women. Gave a her a load of statistics about number of women killed every week by their partners, about women begging for help with stalkers who then kill them, about the 2 families in the UK killed since lock down began by the MEN, about how as a women she will face, discrimination, glass ceiling, physical danger, etc etc, because whether she likes it or not she is a WOMAN, and women have faced that since the beginning of time, and so no, my heart doesn't bleed for the poor menz. She said in divorce women always get the kids, so I mentioned all the single mums whose feckless partners bugger off and leave them with no money and no support holding the baby.
She gave me a load more fake statistics from her men's rights group. which she can't name.

I am so so fucking angry. I hate the fucking internet.

So, apart from my crap parenting, does anyone know the men's rights group she may be refering to, and can anyone counter these statistics with facts? Not just police report facts, (they are apparently all biased) but does anyone know how I can dig behind her facts to see where they come from?

'It doesn’t make us any less a woman.'

Well it does because the whole point of being non binary or trans, if female, is that you're not a woman.

I think you need to look into this a bit more, plan.

Lol at the idea it's feminists who are keen to squish girls into tiny stereotyped boxes.

huh?! what are these stereotypes of women i apparently accept and identify with now?

a short list is fine.

it’s a bit presumptuous of you to assume this when “cis” merely means a person who identifies with the gender stereotypes and roles for their sex.

'Cis' is nonsensical
Who 'identifies with gender stereotypes'?
Which stereoypes & how many are needed to count as significant?

Many people, particularly feminists, reject sex-based stereotypes, expectations & roles. They don't claim to be 'trans' & they'd still be described by TRA/Queer theory believers as 'cis women'

Lots of women and girls are oppressed on the basis of their sex and don't have the freedom, opportunity choice or knowledge to reject that. Even ones who do have those luxuries, and call themselves by another name like that makes a difference, can still be oppressed on the basis of their sex.

Even harder to find a definition of 'cis' when sex role stereotypes (gender) are time and place dependent. You can't be something if you can't define it clearly and if it changes depending on when or where you are.

I can’t give a full response as only have 5mins. But I disagree with the extract you posted. I do not agree that saying you are “not like other girls” is misogyny. If anything, that belief appears to be a desperate attempt to enforce feminine stereotypes and gender roles on girls. That we must all be like each other. Which then means conformity.

PlanDeRaccordement I recommend you read the whole article.

eh? but all girls and women are different!

its only sexist people who think we are the same!

And who think/ say the ones who don't conform to sterotype are not 'real women'.

And it's usually men who make that call 'she looks like a man ha ha ha'.

I'm sorry OP. It bloody stinks. I posted about my DD aged 15 and I have a blazing row, about 8 years ago. It hurts so much when they don't see what tripe they've swallowed.

Anyway I want to say that for the next 6 years gender was an absolute no-go for discussion in my house. all the family agreed it was too inflammatory.

Then last year, she's now 21, she spontaneously said to me that she'd "come round to my way of thinking" and she was grateful for how I gave her the facts then let her think things through herself. I can't tell you what a balm for the soul that was to hear. Stay calm if you can and maybe move the topic off the table for the next 5 years

Oh dear, Plan. You have spectacularly missed the point. To simplify the arguments:

Genderists:
Only women and girls like pink! Therefore all people who like pink are women or girls.
Only men and boys like blue! Therefore all people who like blue are men or boys.
Or there’s this weird shit we tacked on the end that says if you like pink AND blue you’re neither a man nor a woman, you’re NB!

FWR:
All the above is bullshit. Some women like pink, some like blue; some men like blue, some like pink; some men and women like both pink and blue; some like neither. And it’s all ok!
And whether you like either colour or both or neither has NO BEARING on whether you’re a man or a woman, because being a woman or a man is just a simple matter of biology. And anyone who says otherwise is just trying to perpetuate regressive gender stereotypes.

No need for absurd made-up categories like NB because guess what? We’re ALL special!!! Each and every human being is entirely unique. Miraculous. Marvellous. Ain’t life grand?

Every girl is not like other girls imho. We are all unique. It doesn’t make us any less a woman.

Every girl has being female as a shared characteristic. Being of the female sex means specific differences to those who are male.
All girls (providing they survive childhood) become women.

A female child cannot 'identify' out of her sex.

In so far that 'non binary' might mean not conforming to every sex-based stereotype & role then we are all unique NB indiduals (though not plural)

Demanding/cajoling/coercing other people to change established pronoun useage is rude IMO.

And cis means identifying (calling yourself) a woman for example if you were born a woman. Trans means calling yourself a different GENDER to the gender that matches your sex. Gender is a made up concept, sex isn't. So cis isn't sexist and has nothing to do with gender stereotypes it's about which gender you call yourself. Hence why you can get butch lesbian more masculine trans women (born a man but call themselves and therefore identify as a woman, and may have physically transitioned or had hormone treatment)

Mumaof0 You may be new to the FWR board & unaware of additional rules.
Calling the 'OP' a 'terf' is not considered conducive to civil discussion.

info here:
www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

All I'm seeing is a lot of HATE disguised as 'feminisim', guess what, women AND trans people can both be oppressed at the same time. For different reasons

@R0wantrees Ok then, let's replace that word with transphobia. 'Protecting' women by hating trans people isn't feminism. If you don't like trans/NB people just pretend they don't exist because they're not going anywhere.

'Terf' and 'cis' are treated like slurs how ridiculous is that. No one is questioning our right to be women. Outrageous in 2020 that trans excluding feminists are protected as if they're a minority in the same way that trans or other LGBTQ groups are. To me that's like treating homophobes equally to gay people.

Honestly thank god the law protects trans NB and all LGBTQ groups. I am a cis woman and don't claim to understand the feelings of people who are NB or trans but could never not support them when they are so hated by society for wanting to be themselves

Also non binary is about gender not sex. To understand it I think you have to see these two as separate. Gender (how long girls have their hair, what they wear etc) is not biological.

People who are non-binary conflate sex, gender & gender identity.

Women are adult human females regardless how long or short their hair & regardless what clothes they wear.

People should be free to wear & style themselves as they choose. Plenty of people have been gender non-conforming for decades.

Pronouns in English refer to the sex of beings eg "my cat is called Sam, she is black"

Women's spaces & services are intended to be sex based for safety, privacy & dignity.

The OP's daughter is clearly being influenced & given innacurate information by MRAs & TRAs online.

Adults have responsibility to Saefguard children (under 18) as well as Vulnerable Adults.

Honestly thank god the law protects trans NB and all LGBTQ groups.

The law (rightly) protects all citizens.

Many people & organisations have been mis-advised that 'Stonewall Law' represents the actual law.

@R0wantrees Why are you speaking from the perspective of a NB person? They don't conflate gender and sex, NB has nothing to do with sex it's about gender presentation. To us as cisgender (dont get offended cis is a latin word and only means same gender as assigned at birth) we can't expect to ever understand it so the best we can do is support?

@R0wantrees Yes the law protects all citizens eye roll including those protected groups. Don't really see why it's relevant to say all citizens but hey ho

@R0wantrees Honestly what harm is going to come to you from just letting people express themselves as they wish. Whether it's their gender or sexuality

Ok then, let's replace that word with transphobia. 'Protecting' women by hating trans people isn't feminism. If you don't like trans/NB people just pretend they don't exist because they're not going anywhere.

False generalisations arent conducive to civil discussion either.

Have you actually read the OP post?
Arent you concerned that girls are being misled by MRA online sites about the sex-based incidence & pattern of abusive behaviours?