Police officer posts that 1 in 12 transwomen get murdered

[jadefinch]

Cliff Goodwin, who is an engagement officer at the College of Policing, seems to be using the pandemic to post wholly untrue statistics about trans people.

He's said that 1 in 12 transwomen get murdered (no mention of transmen) and that the figure rises to 1 in 8 if they're of colour. He also said 41% of trans people have tried to commit suicide.

In actual fact 7 transwomen have been murdered in the last decade (all by men and none for being trans. One was of colour. The number of women murdered by men in that time is well over 1,300).

The 41% figure has been debunked even by trans organisations like GIDS, who say the figure is actually less than 1%.

When it was pointed out to him that these stats were untrue he said they were international figures (they aren't - they're just made up) and he won't delete them because he wants to highlight the plight of trans people so they are visible (which makes no sense). He's an engagement advisor - but then started blocking ex police officers who said he shouldn't be lying - and noone was positively engaging with him.

What has happened to our police?

twitter.com/cliff_goodwin/status/1244882805483540481?s=19

Have full fact done anything about trans stats?

ooh they have
Problem is facts are nothing now. It doesn't matter if something is actually true, if it sounds good.

Thanks, Stealth, I wish I didn't think and believe it let alone write it.

I’m watching The Sweeny just now. Can you imagine...?

RedDogsBeg you are so right. If he'd been inciting people to go and beat up TW we'd never hear the end of it

There are a great many posters voicing misinformation and disinformation here. Thankfully, one poster linked to my essay that explains where and how this "one in twelve" came from. You can blame me for starting it back in the late '90s... but can blame "transgender" people, who are NOT "profoundly transsexual" for misinterpreting and the echo chamber of the media and social media for uncritically repeating it out of context.

The simple fact is that the number was ONLY about young (early onset) MTF transsexuals. By definition, it excluded all FtM transsexuals, all secret cross-dressers, all "non-binary", and all older (late onset = autogynephilic) transsexuals. But at some point, the term "transsexual" was elided and replaced with "transgender", a far more nebulous and multitudinous self-identity. To see how this can distort the numbers, consider that in the United States, less than 100,000 people have socially transitioned and thus would qualify for the older term "transsexual". While surveys say that as many as 1.4 MILLION people in the US claim to be "transgender". That's a 15 fold difference.

The other disinformation I see here is the claim that these young transwomen are being murdered because they are "sex workers". This is an ugly calumny. The real reason that young transwomen are murdered is because a man got a hard on... and then realized that he was sexually attracted to a male bodied person. That happens even if that transwoman was NOT a "sex worker". Transwomen have been killed on the street just walking home in their own neighborhood. They have been killed at parties. They have been killed on dates (not sex work). They have been killed by a lone man. They have been killed by groups of men.

The sad fact that many young transwomen are intermittantly homeless, unemployed, etc. and turn to sordid means of survival (whether paid or not) is not the primary cause of the violence they experience. It is men freaking out about their sexual attractions to them.

Please don't participate in victim blaming. Know the facts:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2013/08/27/one-in-twelve/

How are people victim blaming?

They're blaming the people who spread these messages not the murder victims. The sex worker comment was, I assume, wondering how the rate of violence against transwomen sex workers differs from the rate of violence against women sex workers in general.
Why are you twisting this?

There's a complaint away to the college of policing from a twitter user. Damn right too, this blantant attempt to mislead the public is outrageous and these people need to be held to account. I'm drafting a lenghty email and all.

If that weren't bad enough these two mouthpieces went out of their way to insult 200 odd people who dared question this misconduct via snotty tweets containing accusations of trolling needing an education and being driven by hate. Why anyone thinks you need a fucking education to see those statistics for what they are is unbeliveble. Some people are so far behind they actually think they're winning.

They've managed to piss off not only civilians but serving and retired officers and all. They've learnt nothing from the Millar case and clearly think they're above the law.

because they are "sex workers". This is an ugly calumny

What is the 'ugly calumny?' Since 'sex work' is considered a high risk occupation for violent crime? Are you disputing that 'sex work' is dangerous? Or are you disputing that the murder statistics for trans women include those engaged in 'sex work?' What precisely is it you are disputing?

That post makes me so angry. It is a perfect example of what we're talking about here.

It could only have been improved by ending it #bekind

But at some point, the term "transsexual" was elided and replaced with "transgender

That's a very curious way to describe a concerted campaign to replace words and sever the relationship between words and external reality. 'Transexual' is the term used throughout the GRA. The lobbyists who wish to revise the GRA want to replace that with 'transgender.' I wonder why?

Transwomen are not being killed at parties or walking home in the UK, in the very few cases where TW have formed part of the murder statistics in the past decade the causes have been known and specific. Several were murdered by other TW, several died in the line of sex work (need to proportionally compare this to the very many female people who die in the same awful way every year), at least one other was a row over money as I remember.

This description of TW being preyed on as they walk the streets is, in the UK, plain not true. And thank God for that, surely that's something to pleased about?

According to the Channel 4 news who have quoted Transrespect Versus Transphobia Worldwide, 9 transpeople were murdered between 2008-2017, that's one per year.

Lifted this from another thread, Cavemum has already researched the details - no point in reinventing the wheel here.

"2015 Vikki Thompson - accidental death, initially reported as suicide www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/jury-returns-verdict-on-transgender-woman-found-dead-in-male-prison

Vanessa Santillan - killed by husband because of sex work www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34591733

2013 Jacqueline Cowdrey - found NOT to have been murdered www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-26145984

2012 Chrissie Azzopardi - killed over drug debts www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/18/chrissie-azzopardi-murder-life-sentence

2011 Lionel/Suzie Morl - described as transvestite, murdered by two Big Issue sellers (male & female) to live off his disability benefits www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/guilty-couple-who-killed-transvestite-689598

2010 Sonia/David Burgess gender fluid lawyer killed by a gender fluid/trans client www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16305570

2009 Andrea Waddell
www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/andrea-waddell-strangled-client-4226743 - sex worker killed by customer. Customer claimed not to know Waddell was transsexual. "During the trial, jurors were asked to consider whether McMillan killed her after discovering she was transgender, or because she was unable to perform sexually for him because of physical ailments after illnesses including fibromyalgia."

Destiny Lauren sex worker - killed by customer www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/life-sentence-for-killer-of-transsexual-prostitute-destiny-lauren-1-680308 Customer had previously sought the services of transsexual prostitutes going by the names of "Fransexual" and "VickisDomain"

They're blaming the people who spread these messages not the murder victims. The sex worker comment was, I assume, wondering how the rate of violence against transwomen sex workers differs from the rate of violence against women sex workers in general

Prostitution is a notoriously dangerous occupation - no matter who participates in it.

My understanding is that most trans women murders are of those engaged in sex work in South America;

The risk factors being that a) they are prostituted and b) they live in South America where the murder rate is high across the board.

plus I think black trans women in the U.S are quite vulnerable.

Black males of all gender identities and none are vulnerable in the USA.

It's almost as if being trans isn't actually the risk factor.

So instead of going back and doubling their efforts with women, ethnic minorities, etc they chose a vocal, demanding and on occasion violent/aggressive minority to adopt?

I'm not convinced that it's really been thought out to that degree. The criticisms became really loud and damaging at a time when the last big civil rights campaign was gay rights and that was still the most topical, with a big well funded easily recognised lobby. So they immediately signed up to take all the Stonewall training and push it from above that this was to be a focus, the managerial level were to keep it in the minds of the officers, and so on. I doubt they even thought much about what the content was Stonewall was going to push, the assumption was they were the experts and understood the issues and could make sure they didn't end up on the wrong end of the social consensus again.

Also - I've noticed that a lot of people have a sort of sense that all these different rights movements are cumulative - like each new one contains all the previous ones. So if you push same sex rights, it will somehow include women's rights, if you push trans rights it will somehow include LGB rights.

That post makes me so angry. It is a perfect example of what we're talking about here.

Agreed. I dislike being manipulated. The "yes but we true transsexuals are different" argument is being used to jam a foot in the door and keep it open with absolutely no regard for the consequences for women, children, or society as a whole. Women's socialization is being used against us, our natural tendency to sympathize and want everyone to be happy weaponized.

Pay close attention to who's trying to draw lines and why, and who those lines benefit. It's not women who are the beneficiaries, and any harm done to us by how the lines are drawn is not considered relevant.

(Also that screenname is like nails down a chalkboard if you read it with the syndrome that must not be discussed on MN in mind.)

(Also that screenname is like nails down a chalkboard if you read it with the syndrome that must not be discussed on MN in mind.)

Yes!

I think it's probably fair to point out that research looking at a small well defined group may have validity so long as it was used as intended.

I'm curious to know what the syndrome which must not be named is :)
Notice that poster hasn't been back. Its like they've put us right, told us to be kind and job done. No need to engage with the silly little women.

so long as it was used as intended

And there's the rub.

When that line is spread around without context, (and has usually been grabbed purely because it's useful when stripped of context) it's for an intentional political reason to influence people while actually misleading them.

Like that incredibly small group of self selected teenagers (17 wasn't it?) who provided such a very politically helpful piece of statistical propaganda that has since been used openly without conscience to harangue the general public that they must abandon women's rights to save a huge percentage of children's lives. People have been shocked and influenced in their decisions by being told a huge proportion of children who self identify are at risk - when they learn it was that proportion of a tiny number, and no one pulled out comorbidities that massively influence the statistics, they feel manipulated and lied to.

It's deceitful practice, it's pure political propaganda, and it systematically trains anyone with a brain to take anything said by this political lobby with a massive bucket of salt. It says a lot that anyone pointing this out is told they are motivated by 'hate' - implying that hyperbolic drama and highly emotional misinformation is crucial to the success of this political movement - and it also says a lot when any political movement cannot stand on its own using plain fact and honesty. If you have to lie to achieve your aims, and to attack those who question those lies, then there's something very rotten in the state of Denmark.

Its like they've put us right, told us to be kind and job done

It's not like they've got anything else. Faith based position. It's just about 400 years too late to be shouting 'heretic' and expecting something to happen.