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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg

220 replies

Cwenthryth · 11/03/2020 07:43

Yes, really. He retweeted Zoe Williams article as a ‘powerful defense (sic) of trans rights’ and has gone on in replies to demonstrate he has zero understanding of what the issues are here. Keeps complaining about ‘negative stereotypes’. He’s stuck way back in ‘be kind, men are nasty to transsexuals in prison so let anyone self-identify into women’s prison’.

Many women & some men well on the way to ratio-ing him, but will he listen?

twitter.com/billybragg/status/1237489351535271938?s=21

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NewYearNewTwatName · 09/07/2020 14:01

Billy Bragg's music and activism played a huge part in DH student years. when I met DH his music was still quite a feature in his life.

DH joined socialist parties and stuff at uni but gave them up quickly when he realised it was mainly run by Rich boys playing at being "working class heroes" (appropriation) looking at you OJ.

So When I was taking a break from social media earlier this year. You can imagine how my jaw dropped when Billy Bragg turn up on some program on the telly and DH suddenly said what an up his own arse patronising twat he was.

For once it was DH telling me about someone's misogyny showing its self all over twitter.

He's not burning his records though or trying to cancel him, although I think he wishes Bragg would stop and listen, and actually know and understand the subject properly before opening his mouth.

My thoughts are Billy Brag is WERM, no one will ever change his views, he will never look further than a tweet that he agrees with.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 09/07/2020 14:07

Anyone who uses the word ‘delegitimising’ is clearly an arse.

I think he needs to be ‘unimagined’

RoyalCorgi · 09/07/2020 14:25

When it comes down to it, it's simple: loads of men hate women. It's not just the types you think of as hating women - the rich, Eton-educated Tory types who expect their wives/nannies/domestic servants to do all the work and would never change a nappy.

Even, or perhaps especially, among men who think of themselves as progressive or left-wing, there's a deeprooted hatred of women. Women are OK if they're, say, cleaners going on strike and therefore taking a class-based action the left-wing men can approve of. But if women dare to organise to support their own rights, then it's a no-no. How dare women think for themselves? How dare women exclude men from their political action? How dare women not consult the men who must know better they do?

In some of the arguments I've had with men online about this, you can sense their sheer rage that you just won't do as you're told, that you simply won't listen. It's like when toddlers want to eat a a packet of Haribos for their lunch and you say No. It's absolute screaming, foot-stamping, lying-on-the-floor-red-in-the-face rage at not being allowed to have their own way.

OldCrone · 09/07/2020 14:37

Niche in terms of widely debated, not importance. For the record, I disagree with Bragg on this and was banned from another forum for defending JKR. I'm not playing down womens' rights or concerns by any means.

Do you understand why this isn't widely debated?

sashagabadon · 09/07/2020 15:41

@AntsInPenzance

People aren't perfect and I'm not comfortable with someone being attacked as a whole for their opinion on one fairly niche topic. Bragg has done a lot of good things socially.
I agree he is entitled to his opinion but i disagree it is a niche topic - it negatively impacts on 51% of the population. It is the opposite of niche.
Collidascope · 09/07/2020 15:43

@Helmetbymidnight

well yeah, im not proposing burning his records or sending him rape or death threats- or asking his associates to re-educate themselves. or even insisting anyone who ever sang with him comes out and disassociates themselves from him...

he's v snarky to david aaranovitch in that thread too- really not coming across as a clever guy anymore.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of David Aaronovitch, and he runs rings round the misogynistic little men on this issue - and others. He and Owen Jones had a barney a week or so ago, I think.
MoleSmokes · 10/07/2020 06:21

NewYearNewTwatName - "My thoughts are Billy Brag is WERM, no one will ever change his views, he will never look further than a tweet that he agrees with."

Wot's WERM??? Smile

Collidascope - I'm a big fan of David Aaronovitch, and he runs rings round the misogynistic little men on this issue - and others.

DA is rock solid! Star

While I'm here . . . in addition to Widdicombe and Tebbit, a high-five to Colin Moynihan for warning repeatedly in debates on the GRA2004 that it would be the death of women's sports.

I would love to be able to high five some Labour Parliamentarians for their efforts to protect women's rights during debates on the GRA2004. Any suggestions, AntsInPenzance ?

Gncq · 10/07/2020 06:45

Woman Excluding Radical Maninist?

Langsdestiny · 10/07/2020 06:53

Royalcorgi has pretty much nailed it. The one useful thing of this debate is showing us those men who previously hid their utter hatred of women.

Kit19 · 10/07/2020 07:25

The guardian continues to prove how much it really hates women by giving billy an opinion piece

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/10/free-speech-young-people

He makes a valid point about the importance of accountability But isn’t the whole problem with twitter & Instagram where most of the denouncing & witch burning happens is that there is zero accountability? You can scream TERF, suck my lady dick, send porn & death threats as you like and there are no repercussions

Packingsoapandwater · 10/07/2020 08:13

They've always been like this. It's the reason why the Miners' Strike is a "historical political moment", but the Gate Gourmet strike isn't.

I spent my twenties heavily involved in left wing politics and, fundamentally, what I found was a "movement" of middle class/upper middle class, over-privileged individuals (largely male) , whose radicalism was fuelled by a deep resentment that they didn't automatically slide into positions into positions of power and influence when they finished their education. And this was over twenty years ago.

That's why they hated Tories because "Tories" were the ones they thought kept them out of what they thought was their right to power and wealth. I never met one left wing white activist that had been to a comprehensive school or lived in a council house. And they were pretty much terrified of working class males, a fear they span round by dismissing most of them as fascists, Nazis, thugs, idiots etc.

And they'll jump on any bandwagon they think will deliver them to the life they secretly believe they deserve, no matter how much their involvement may destroy said movement.

I was lucky to be of an age when old school feminists and race campaigners were still around and would talk freely. I remember one particular Amazon in the field of feminism and race relations telling me that certainly well known left wing cultural names at the time were "full of shit" and that they weren't allies. I was shocked back then by her words, but, by God, she was right.

RoyalCorgi · 10/07/2020 09:28

Kit19 - it's such a stupid piece. He doesn't acknowledge the troubling potential of cancel culture, such as "cancelling" Jodie Comer because she has a Republican boyfriend, or "cancelling" JK Rowling because she wrote a nuanced, thoughtful essay defending her belief in the importance of single-sex spaces. He doesn't talk about people actually losing their jobs as the result of cancel culture - people like Maya Forstater, for example. What a pathetic, self-important little man he is.

merrymouse · 10/07/2020 09:50

"The ability of middle-aged gatekeepers to control the agenda has been usurped by a new generation of activists who can spread information through their own networks, allowing them to challenge narratives promoted by the status quo."

"A new generation of activists" did not stop Trump or Brexit, and labour still lost by a landslide.

He overestimates the real political effectiveness of twitter, while completely ignoring its toxicity.

KaronAVyrus · 10/07/2020 09:56

He also sounds very ageist. What a dick.

merrymouse · 10/07/2020 10:01

Woman Excluding Radical Maninist?

Well there is something rather worrying about people who argue that biology is irrelevant to women's rights - men just hate women.

AntsInPenzance · 10/07/2020 10:09

@Kit19

The guardian continues to prove how much it really hates women by giving billy an opinion piece

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/10/free-speech-young-people

He makes a valid point about the importance of accountability But isn’t the whole problem with twitter & Instagram where most of the denouncing & witch burning happens is that there is zero accountability? You can scream TERF, suck my lady dick, send porn & death threats as you like and there are no repercussions

Ha, my comment on that article has been deleted by the Guardian! I didn't even say anything rude or transphobic, I was very polite.

my comment was saying treat transpeople with respect but listen to womens' concerns about self-ID and changing rooms.

NewYearNewTwatName · 10/07/2020 11:21

MoleSmokes

Women Excluding Radical Misogynist

RoyalCorgi · 10/07/2020 11:24

Annoying that they've closed comments. I was ready to let rip - the reason I didn't do so earlier was because I had assumed that they wouldn't open comments on the piece in the first place.

I think this is probably the end of the road for me and the Guardian. They've tested my loyalty to the limit.

RoyalCorgi · 10/07/2020 11:27

This was quite a sensible comment - amazed the Guardian let it stand!

'This pieces makes a number of assumptions that it shouldn't, the three most important being that young people are a monolithic block with the same thoughts; that only the "reactionary right" are victims of cancel culture, rather than, esteemed professors or academics; and that the threat of online kangaroo courts isn't enough to silence someone before they've even aired what might be an unpopular but uncontroversial opinion. Ultimately, it makes the mistake of putting people into two camps - morally spotless and morally wrong - and that, in a nutshell, is the problem.'

Packingsoapandwater · 10/07/2020 11:43

The ability of middle-aged gatekeepers to control the agenda has been usurped by a new generation of activists who can spread information through their own networks, allowing them to challenge narratives promoted by the status quo.

This is where Bragg shows he never quite grew up.

We all thought this back in the day when we were young. It never happened; we never controlled the agenda or even influenced it -- no matter how many campaigns, protests, internet blogs, bulletin boards we ran. And when we finally became middle-aged, we found, on so many issues, that "the debate" had actually gone backwards, against the grain of a gradually more socially liberal General Public.

Crikey, I remember those End of History arguments. That perspective didn't last, did it?

That Bragg doesn't see this is testament to the silo he must live in, and his lack of involvement in issues as they present on the ground, in real people's lives and neighbourhoods.

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