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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

999 replies

RoyalCorgi · 16/02/2020 19:16

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

OP posts:
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13
NeurotrashWarrior · 18/02/2020 20:33

I've just seen a #labourlobotomy hashtag; feels appropriate.

To any additional ignorant or maybe arrogant newbies to the thread:

  1. RTFT.
  1. Transmen have never been put in male prisons. Why is this?
  1. Even Dawn 90%giraffes-are-gay-babies-have-no-sex Butler says the title of this thread isn't happening.
  1. TW who've had srs have/are abusing women in women's jails over the pond. If you'd read the full thread and watched the MM link, you'd see this explained in horrific detail.
DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 18/02/2020 20:37

I genuinely can’t believe someone just wrote this.

That’s how I felt last night after someone said it’s one for male people to staff rape crisis phone lines of they had feminine sounding voices.

In a way, I’m glad we’re still shockable and not completely numb to the madness.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/02/2020 21:01

Mass political education will also be crucial to spread the intellectual tools to understand and fight our oppression; free night schools and accessible literature about what transphobia is and how to fight it could transform our political capabilities entirely.

Two thoughts here. First, the Chinese communist party is a bit busy dealing with the coronavirus outbreak right now so you may have to wait a bit in order to borrow their propaganda apparatus. Secondly, just out of curiosity, where would the money for the free night schools come from? Given that apparently we can't find the funds needed for the NHS and all.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/02/2020 21:11

The privacy/dignity angle doesn't wash with woke women

See, here's the thing about that. You, Woke Young Woman, want to get naked in the changing room with transwomen in order to prove some sort of political point, or just because you want to for whatever reason? On you go, then. Organize a social club and hold weekly "inclusive" nudist BBQs if you like. But that consent to get naked with adult males who identify as woman only applies to you. You do not get to consent for me, or for other women. You can choose to waive your own right to privacy, but not anyone else's.

Justhadathought · 18/02/2020 21:12

The privacy/dignity angle doesn't wash with woke women

That's because 'woke women' are not being honest with themselves.

Saw a documentary by Louis Theroux recently, in which he interviewed some very woke 'sex positive women'; one of whom was working in prostitution. Sex was just sex, apparently...no big deal.....'liberated women' blah blah blah!

Actually turned out young woke woman was sexually abused for years as a child - and being a 'sex positive sex worker was her way of trying to mitigate that......and heal herself....obviously never going to work.

So much for woke'ness.

StealthPolarBear · 18/02/2020 21:15

Trust your instincts. If someone gives you the creeps don't worry about offending them, get out of the situation.
Unleess they're a transwomen in which case be kind, grit your teeth and get on with it.

BatShite · 18/02/2020 21:16

So it does come down to rape

The privacy/dignity angle doesn't wash with woke women

Its both tbh. Of course if we are playing 'potential problems with locking rapists with women' top trumps, rape would trump privacy/dignity in 'seriousness' I guess. BY product of potential pregnancies also, which is great of course. You appear to have accepted pregnancy as a valid reason for not locking women in small spaces with rapists, so we are getting somewhere at least I guess!

Of course on the other hand, where appearently many women are still handwringing about this part.. the poor rapists feelings. Boohoo.

Its a toughie.

FemiLANGul · 18/02/2020 21:20

I'm sure a rapist will check a whether a woman is sufficiently woke or not before raping them.

BatShite · 18/02/2020 21:22

I'm sure a rapist will check a whether a woman is sufficiently woke or not before raping them.

IDK mind, apparently it comes as a huge shock to self identified transmen that rapists do not ask them their gender identity before raping them. Seriously. Its..baffling. They appear to really believe all the bollocks about how noone can actually recognise someones sex, and how inner feels dictate wether you are male or female..

BatShite · 18/02/2020 21:23

*both baffling and really sad and also, rather worrying.

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/02/2020 21:32

If you want to rip your kit off in front of TW or anyone at all, for your political reasons or for any reason, that's entirely your choice. Go for it. I'll hold your coat. I just don't agree in compelling any female to do so that doesn't choose to.

Because we don't do that to humans. We don't humiliate them by demanding they show their bodies to those they don't consent to being present or seeing. We don't demand that people allow themselves to be touched by someone they choose not to be. We don't forcibly lock up other females with a male to compel them to use their body to provide the male human with a therapeutic experience without their consent.

Because that would be sick and an appalling breach of rights, not seen in the western world since the 40s. In fact undoing rights that were created IN the 40s as a specific response to some of the most appalling human rights violations ever seen in Europe, as it was agreed world wide amongst the allies that there should be standards of human treatment that should not be breached for political reasons.

wellbehavedwomen · 18/02/2020 21:37

@DuploTower

The following facts are taken from Ministry of Justice data.

Most men are in prison for violent crime. Most women in prison are there for financial crime.

95% of prisoners are male. 5% of prisoners are female.

More than 98% of sex offending is committed by males. Less than 2% is committed by females.

There are 13,500 men in prison for sex offending from an overall male population of 32 million. There are 126 women in prison for sex offending from an overall female population of 32 million. There were at least 60 transwomen in prison for sex offending in 2016 from an estimated population of 200,000 - for the offending rates to be the same as female, that population should be 16 million. When people claim transwomen offend at male rates, that is, quite simply, a provable lie. They do not.

The Ministry of Justice has noted that the number of male prisoners claiming trans identity has exponentially increased in the past four years: it's now 1 in 50 male prisoners. Rhona Hotchkiss, the SNP politician, was a Governor of a woman's prison. She has testified before the Scottish Parliament that there are now more transwomen sex offenders jailed than natal women.

More than half the women in prison have been subjected to male violence. A majority were abused in childhood by men. Many have been prostituted by men. They have extremely good reason to fear men. Women who end up in prison tend to come from traumatic backgrounds. Trauma inflicted, again, by men. They need and deserve female only provision. Instead, it is suggested that they should be locked in with rapists. Some have already been locked in with rapists, in fact.

Again, one in fifty men in the male estate now claim to identify as women. If Nandy were ever in power, and implemented this policy, that would mean almost a third of prisoners in women's prisons would be male, including any sex offender, or domestic abuser - even if that abuse ended in the death of the woman concerned. It would include any level of criminality, as Nandy has made it clear that she regards any male to claim trans status as a woman on that basis.

@R0wantrees quotes:

2015 Written evidence to parliamentary Transgender Equality Inquiry by Dr James Barrett President of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists.

"The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this."

Transwomen are not female. They are male. Lying about that causes the avoidable and serious abuse of women. We know, because there have been prison rapes of women by transwomen in several countries. Nandy is saying that pretending biology is not real is more important than protecting women from rape. It also gaslights some very vulnerable women, who know exactly what a man is, and have already suffered at male hands. Abused women are often bullied into accepting the abuser's reality - coercive control and gaslighting. To tell them that people everyone knows are male are women is to continue that in particularly grotesque fashion. It is the state gaslighting and abusing vulnerable women, in a context where they cannot escape. People are literally moving rapists into a locked environment with women, claiming that it's okay because they have a woman's penis. How is the insanity of that not immediately apparent?

Women are very rarely violent criminals. Men are not uncommonly violent criminals. Men are much stronger and larger than women on average. Transition does not alter that. Women are genuinely vulnerable to men. This is why the debate is all around placing transwomen in women's prisons. It is openly admitted that you could not place a transman in a male prison because the risk would not be manageable. This is because the risk assessment prioritises the prisoner in question, and not the population they are to moved into.

All prison reform charities note that the policy places women at risk in both psychological and physical terms. This article is by the head of one such charity, and I would urge you to read it.

wellbehavedwomen · 18/02/2020 21:43

Sorry, that should be When people claim transwomen offend at female rates, that is, quite simply, a provable lie. They do not. I'm not saying there's any evidence that transwomen offend more than other males. Just that we can easily prove they offend at a dramatically higher rate than women do.

Hard to keep the nouns indicating sex organised in this context. Apologies if I've done it elsewhere too. Hopefully the meaning is clear.

wellbehavedwomen · 18/02/2020 21:47

@Michelleoftheresistance

If you want to rip your kit off in front of TW or anyone at all, for your political reasons or for any reason, that's entirely your choice. Go for it. I'll hold your coat. I just don't agree in compelling any female to do so that doesn't choose to.

Because we don't do that to humans. We don't humiliate them by demanding they show their bodies to those they don't consent to being present or seeing. We don't demand that people allow themselves to be touched by someone they choose not to be. We don't forcibly lock up other females with a male to compel them to use their body to provide the male human with a therapeutic experience without their consent.

Because that would be sick and an appalling breach of rights, not seen in the western world since the 40s. In fact undoing rights that were created IN the 40s as a specific response to some of the most appalling human rights violations ever seen in Europe, as it was agreed world wide amongst the allies that there should be standards of human treatment that should not be breached for political reasons.

Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers

DeRigueurMortis · 18/02/2020 22:05

Fact: women are regularly warned to keep themselves safe from Male sexual predators.

We are told not to walk alone at night.

Not take unlicensed taxis.

To keep people informed of our whereabouts.

Not to wear "provocative" clothing.

Not to get drunk.

To keep our drinks in hand so they don't get spiked.

And so on......

All this to protect us against Male violence.

Women are repeatedly told it's OUR responsibility to adapt our behaviour and even our dress so as not to enable men's ability to attack us.

Break any of these "rules" and it will be the first line of attack for any defence barrister in court representing your Male attacker.

Yet at the same time.....it's ok to:

  • put a male rapist in a women's jail
  • give men access to women's safe spaces

Why? So some men feel safe....Hmm

This isn't a complex issue.

The reason sex segregation in prisons and elsewhere is required is because of Male violence.

The idea that some sexually predatory men will not exploit legal loopholes to gain access to women is not just wishful thinking - it's deeply flawed.

The fact that some women are "comfortable" read woke and naive in sharing female spaces with men does not give them the right to deny sex segregated spaces on behalf of all women.

FloralBunting · 18/02/2020 22:14

I'm not entirely convinced Duplo is coming from the 'woke woman' perspective, tbh. If I had to guess, I'd think maybe a bit of devil's advocate, for whatever reason, or perhaps one of the charming types who think that if you're in prison, you forfeit rights to dignity etc. Hard to say, really, but I think I'm done discussing with the people cheering on women being stripped of their rights, or feigning ignorance, so I'm going to go and do something more pleasant, like maybe dealing with dogshit.

CallofDoodee · 18/02/2020 22:56

Exactly @DeRigueurMortis

Women are always told how we should curb our behaviour in order to keep ourselves safe. And if we don't do these things then it's our fault if something happens to us.

But when we suggest things to keep ourselves safe which involve a man not being able to do exactly what he wants then we are paranoid, hysterical, that it will never happen. In fact we are told we are fucking bigots.

The misogyny of this whole thing is so breathtaking I just can't even.

TheElementsOdeToJoy · 18/02/2020 23:22

@Michelleoftheresistance StarStarStarStarStar

BadgertheBodger · 18/02/2020 23:22

I fucking love you lot. ^ all the above Star

Too many of you to namecheck but you’re all so clear and absolutely right. Fuck compromise, I’m done with this as well. We are now generally at a point where MPs are arguing for male rapists to be locked up with women because otherwise they might get hurty feelz or something. Nope. No fucking way. This stops here.

Zebracat · 18/02/2020 23:32

I just told Angela Rayner, by email, why I wouldn’t be voting for her. I would rather have a functioning Labour Party but still. No doubt I will have an email from Lisa Nandy, and I will enjoy saying no to her as well.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/02/2020 23:42

Are you going to respond to Nandy's email with RAPISTS IN WOMEN'S PRISONS ARE YOU ON GLUE?

SammySmyth · 18/02/2020 23:49

This example of cultural Marxism is ripping our communities and our country to shreds. If we don't stop it now it will end up destroying Western Civilisation because it won't stop with men in women's prisons it will get worse and worse until everyone ends up hating everyone else.

Girlananchronism · 18/02/2020 23:57

I'm beginning to think @SammySmyth that that is the point.

Girlananchronism · 19/02/2020 00:02

I can't speak freely about this to anyone, even my own child who identifies as trans. I'm so scared of losing them that I shut up.

SammySmyth · 19/02/2020 00:04

Apologies if I offend anyone but it's obvious to me that the Far Left are inherently evil and just want to see the world burn.

There is no rational explanation for wanting to put a man with a penis in a prison with women, with some of those women being extremely vulnerable other than wanting to cause anger and disruption. There just isn't any other reason.