So much confusion over transgender issues

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

Autumn rose, one of my daughters was flashed and followed by a cis man on her way to school. I was flashed by a cis man when I was at school. Why is someone trans any more of a threat?

You were both flashed by males. You recognised their sex
How are you & other women or girls to know their gender identity?
Flashing females, especially young females, is a specifically male pattern abusive behaviour.
Males who identify as trans will be significantly more inclined to this & other sexually motivated crimes (see also voyeurism) than females who identify as trans.
The key differential is sex eg male/female

Are you aware of the allegations relating to Jess Bradley's suspension & various investigations? Bradley is the former NUS Trans Officer, co-founder TELI & Action For Trans Health and identifies as 'non-binary transwoman'.
Jess Bradley has played a key role in shaping government & public policy.

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520762-Jess-Bradley-government-advisor-and-suspended-NUS-Trans-Officer-Part-iv

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325623-Jess-Bradley-a-government-advisor-on-womens-rights-suspended-by-NUS-over-indecent-blog-Part-iii

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3321764-Jess-Bradley-suspended-Part-II

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323623-Who-is-really-funding-Jess-Bradleys-defence

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3626735-Update-on-the-Jess-Bradley-position

Self ID means any man can say he’s a woman and become entitled to have entry to all woman only spaces

There’s no need to prove it, there’s not even any need to present as a woman

Why do ppl think women fought for women only spaces? It wasn’t because we had nothing else to do, it was because we needed spaces that were free from men so we could be safe & free to discuss issues that affect women

Self ID removes that at a stroke

Why is someone trans any more of a threat?

If you read the pp, you will see this is not what has been said. Men are a threat (NAMALT)

Not cis men. Just men is fine.

Wholly understand, OP. If there was no harm to women's rights, and women being called names and threatened (and even taken to court ffs) for arguing back about their spaces, their rights, their own needs, then FWR would be a ghost town. There would be no issue.

Releasethehounds do you not realise that self-Id would entitle that flasher to share a changing room with your daughter?

Very good question, eurochick. I’d be interested to hear your answer, Releasethehounds.

Must say that if I was a flasher, I know which prison I'd rather go to, or better still I could just Self-ID now and head for the nearest swimming baths. Whoopee.

release trans isn’t more of a threat.

Under self ID, anyone can say they are a woman and just flash you in a changing room, hospital etc and it’s no longer a crime that you can report.

It's weird isn't it how any concern you raise is framed as an assertion that trans people don't exist/don't have the right to exist.

Every time I see this (which is every fricking day!) I instantly visualise a stroppy teenage saying they didn't ask to be born and slamming a door. The sheer immaturity of it is laughable.

There is no confusion over transgender issues.

Human beings cannot change sex.

The benefits of pretending that they can mostly accrue to adult males. The harms of pretending that they can mostly accrue to women and children.

OP, I strongly recommend you read this article. It explains a lot of the subterfuge and underhandedness that went on to get where we are now

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

I just cannot understand that by saying I think self ID is dangerous and could be abused makes me transphobic.

You cannot understand OP because you are approaching it from a presumption that there is a basis of rationality or the starting point of a real interest in social justice/minority rights in this movement. That’s where you’re going wrong, because those things are entirely absent from the demands around self ID.

“Trans rights” are framed as a vulnerable minority rights issue, but in fact this is a movement whose intention and goal is for those who, as a group, currently have more power and privilege (males) to dominate and control those who, as a group, currently have less power and privilege (females).

In many parts of the western world, dressing up this attempt to consolidate and increase male privilege/power as a “minority rights struggle” is actually a more effective strategy than simple Men’s Rights Activism. Because it combines actual power (and all the leverage that brings with it) with projected “disadvantaged” status, which makes it a priority in societies that want to think of themselves as progressive.

The irrationality and rank social injustice of the goals of the “trans rights” movement are so clearly apparent and easily demonstrable (as you yourself have realised on the issue of self ID) that the only way for those who are trying to force through these changes to deflect attention and scrutiny from their proposals is to demonise and vilify all those who raise objections, no matter how justified those objections are.

Hence the need to brand you, and anyone else who questions any part of it, whether on the grounds of safeguarding, of women’s rights, of free speech, whatever, as “transphobic”.

It’s only when you look at it through this lens that it all makes sense.

If anyone is worried about being 'transphobic', there's a useful list of what to avoid here:

wingsoverscotland.com/everything-is-transphobic/

Buzz you’re doing the teen a disservice

Crucial difference- no one volunteered to be born. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Nowt to do with all this, er, bollocks.

The “trans rights” movement has manufactured the myth that in a just and decent society, it should be a “human right” for male people to violate and destroy the boundaries of female people.

And such is its power and influence that a truly horrifying number of people - particularly those with some form of power/influence themselves - and institutions have bought into this myth, and are bolstering it up and disseminating it as far and wide as they can, day after day.

Maybe it's just me but no I don't particularly worry about a trans female sharing a changing room with my daughters. I asked them and neither were concerned and also added there wouldn't be a situation where they would be alone in the changing room in the first place.

An interesting question from the OP and some interesting views expressed thereafter.

I'll happily declare myself to be a trans woman but also a barrister with a particular interest in the clash of rights set up, on occasion, by the nine protected characteristics recognised by the Equality Act in the UK.

I note the comments suggesting that one right should not 'trump' another. Life, however, is not so simple. Religious organisations can exclude gay individuals in certain circumstances, and a religion or a belief do not 'validate' hate speech. Dealing with the clashes sets up interesting moral, philosophical questions which more practical organisations like employers and educational institutions have to solve on a practical level like 'who can use which toilet or changing room?'

The answers are not simple, especially where scientists, lawmakers and lawyers are not agreed on the answer to the question 'who is a woman or a man' and simplistic tests, like 'show me your chromosomes' (1) do not deliver a simple answer (an XY woman with androgen insensitivity syndrome, for example) or (2) practical issues such as are we planning to install chromosome testing arches on the entrance to all supermarket toilets?

That doesnt mean these issues should not be debated. I have personally helped a number of organisations consider difficult questions related to all nine characteristics over the past 25 years. But starting from an 'absolutist' and disrespectful position will not get to the right answer. Evidence is always important, and some simple logic often pops the balloon of the wilder positions adopted.

And do consider carefully strategies involving alligning with those on political extremes. The religious right, particularly in the US, think that 'trans' is the current thin end of the wedge and would be delighted to move on to erasing LG and B rights thereafter were they to succeed with trans.

release but being flashed at by a man annoys you, or are not fussed about that either?

The issue is not trans women

It is men

Any man can declare himself a woman and access said changing room. That’s self ID. My DH tonorrow could go to Marks & Spencer’s as a fully intact Male presenting as a man and say he was a woman and he’d be let in

Now I know my DH is perfectly safe around women but you don’t know that or not dies any woman

This is about men!

Maybe it's just me but no I don't particularly worry

How lovely for you

You're all right Jack. Now I'll pop back to worrying about the women that aren't, since they matter too.

What is your understanding of 'a trans-female'?

Does it necessitate surgery, medication, psychiatry or just the word of a hairy-arsed bloke with a full set of bits to wash in front of you?

I don't particularly worry because I know the vast majority of men wouldn't dream of flashing, raping or abusing a woman. Same applies to trans people. I'm a feminist, not frightened of men. With my two DDs I have taken precautions to protect them and teach them to be careful. Now they are older I have to trust them to continue with this. Nice to hear from the trans poster making some sensible points.

No, is quite easy to work out who is male and female, and there is a small set of people with disorders of the male female system which really doesn't complicate things at all

Try this quiz

How many arms does a human have?
How many legs does a human have?
Can human beings see?

All those you answer easily, even though people will be born with developmental disorders that break those simple rules. Sex is just the same.

neither were concerned and also added there wouldn't be a situation where they would be alone in the changing room in the first place

Why did they feel the need to add that, I wonder?

release “ I don't particularly worry because I know the vast majority of men wouldn't dream of flashing, raping or abusing a woman.”

Ah, so men don’t worry you generally. I get it.

With my two DDs I have taken precautions to protect them and teach them to be careful.

Careful of who? And why?