So much confusion over transgender issues

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

It needs to be self-enforcement, backed by social norms. As it always has been. The difference now is that there is a concerted (and extremely successful) effort to change social norms at the expense of women and children. All these statements about how terribly complicated it would be are deliberate attempts at obfuscation.

I think you are mixing gender variation and sexual discrepancies

Also worth to note that I think the most common by far sex discrepancy is xxx which is like female squared

Any space that is set aside for the protection of a vulnerable group needs boundaries, and those boundaries need enforcing. The way that these boundaries have been enforced up until now is that the vulnerable group has had the right to speak up when they recognize trespassers in their midst and demand that they leave, and they have been able to get help in removing the offenders. Males don't belong in women's spaces.

I find it distressing that robin talks about the significant mental distress of transpeople not allowed to use the facilities of the sex that is associated with their gender identity whilst not recognising the distress to women at being unable to use a facility that is associated with their sex irrespective of their gender identity

Single sex spaces are part of Safeguarding frameworks. Every adult (as well as organisations & the state) has a responsibility to safeguard children & vulnerable adults.
Adult males know their sex.
Adult males make a choice to assert their perceived 'right' to go into female spaces where women & girls are vulnerable due to being undressed, sleeping, ill etc.
Its very strange to me that its so frequently demanded of women raising Safeguarding concerns 'how would you police these breaches, it would be futile'

Would the same dialogue be accepted when discussing Safeguarding frameworks which are based on age I wonder?

Well seems to me even suggesting that self ID is an issue amounts to hate speech, if the trans lobby has its way.

It needs to be self-enforcement, backed by social norms. As it always has been. The difference now is that there is a concerted (and extremely successful) effort to change social norms at the expense of women and children. All these statements about how terribly complicated it would be are deliberate attempts at obfuscation.

Yy, PaleBlueMoonlight. Absolutely.

Exactly,R0wantrees.

Who am I protecting my children from? Potentially anyone! We all teach our kids the basics of safety; for me I've always been more worried about traffic.
I have a question for any of you. If one of your children disclosed they felt they were trans (m to f or f to m) would that make you feel differently?

Maybe it's just me but no I don't particularly worry about a trans female sharing a changing room with my daughters.

I notice you completely side-stepped the actual question put to you, Releasethehounds, which was do you not realise that self-Id would entitle that flasher to share a changing room with your daughter?

I wonder why it is you don’t want to answer that directly. It looks a lot like it’s because you know you can’t answer it.

I have a question for any of you. If one of your children disclosed they felt they were trans (m to f or f to m) would that make you feel differently?

Several FWR posters are in that position.
Generally we don't feel that being trans means you deserve less safeguarding.

(Apologies but I'm struggling to get my laptop with the 'quote' facility.)

The best study on the number of trans individuals concluded that 1/1500 of the population is gender dysphoric but only about 1/5,000 take a practical step. BUT that study is 10 years old and the number has clearly risen since then - hence the range.

There is plainly something of a difference between department store changing rooms and, say, a woman's refuge about the intended level of protection for vulnerable individuals and some proprtionaity has to come into any sensible debate.

I note that the OP was concerned that there would be 'a lot' of inappropriate individuals 'taking advantage' of self-ID. Time for evidence to lead, I would suggest. Stats are no doubt there to be had but my newspaper is not full of such examples (acknowledging that one is one too many for the individual concerned). The Times whipped up concern about shared compartments on the Caledonian sleepers last year, and it turned out that there was no evidence of any difficulty ever have been reported. Equally, I have read consultation responses from women's refuges which have made plain that they have managed (the very rare) requests for assistance from trans women perfectly sucessfully in the past and without detriment to the generallity of the women they provide an invaluable service to.

So lets be lead by an objective view of evidence, not fear and prejudice. I've been watching the 1970's TV series 'Survivors' over the past few days and there was a very telling episode called 'The Witch' in which a character called Mina, who was a little different from her group was victimised and excluded on the basis of groundless fears. A lesson for us all to remember.

Enjoying the discussion on a stormy afternoon in the west country, BTW

I find it distressing that robin talks about the significant mental distress of transpeople not allowed to use the facilities of the sex that is associated with their gender identity whilst not recognising the distress to women at being unable to use a facility that is associated with their sex irrespective of their gender identity

Rhona Hotchkiss former governor of Cornton Vale explains says that in her experience it is "always an issue to have trans women in with female prisoners”

"My experience is, that it is always an issue to have trans women in with female prisoners, I think you have to think beyond the obvious things like physical or sexual threat, which are sometimes an issue, to the very fact of the presence of a male bodied person in amongst vulnerable women causes them distress and consternation."
www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-scotland-51452489/ex-prison-chief-expresses-concern-about-trans-women-in-female-jails

thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3823351-Ex-prison-chief-expresses-concern-about-trans-women-in-female-jails

Im unsure whether male transactists are unaware of the extent & impact of male violence against women & girls or aware but lacking in empathy & care.

Self-ID would not 'entitle' a flasher to share a changing room.

Anyone exhibiting such behaviour would be subject to the full rigour of the law, and we HAVE self-ID at the moment, so this isnt a valid argument against proposed GRA reform, with great respect.

And if you are going to respond with the 'space should be for genetic females only' response, then you need to deal with the 'identification' point.

The best study on the number of trans individuals concluded that 1/1500 of the population is gender dysphoric but only about 1/5,000 take a practical step. BUT that study is 10 years old and the number has clearly risen since then - hence the range.

It reads like a very different population and not germane to your assertions within this topic. (As per PPs, I thought you were blending populations /incidence/prevalence etc. but wanted to check.)

Anyone exhibiting such behaviour would be subject to the full rigour of the law

Unlikely, since the police don't even seem to have the resources to investigate crimes like burglaries and physical assaults. See this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3823427-Collapse-of-confidence-in-police

we HAVE self-ID at the moment

What do you mean by this?

Its very strange to me that its so frequently demanded of women raising Safeguarding concerns 'how would you police these breaches, it would be futile'

Indeed. It's remarkably telling that the strongly held intention to violate women's boundaries and there's nothing you can do about it, is held up as some kind of justification. Absolutely bonkers.

I'm quite aware of RHona Hotchkiss view.

The prison service have a difficult job to do and (like the clash of protected characteristics) have to balance the effect of particular inmates on others wherever they are house on the prison estate.

No doubt readers will be aware of the highly publicised suicides of trans women prisoners kept on the male estate a short while back.

These are a microcosm of the problem of housing offenders of all sorts together and balancing the need to maintain socialisation against the costs and drawbacks of holding every inmate in solitary confinement.

Life is always shades of grey.

Self Id means any man will be able to enter a changing room safe in the knowledge that they cannot be challenged. The changing room is now therefore mixed sex. Sex abuse rates are much higher in mixed sex rooms than in single sex ones.

So robin, do you not believe that mixed sex facilities are more dangerous, or do you believe that having male and female bodies in the same area isn't the same as mixed sex , or do you believe that men currently easily self Id into changing rooms so nothing will change or do you believe that men will not self ID in order to enter those spaces?

Self-ID would not 'entitle' a flasher to share a changing room.

Anyone exhibiting such behaviour would be subject to the full rigour of the law

What law? There is no law that says women must not, under any circumstances, show their bodies in a changing room? In many communal changing rooms at gyms women will walk around naked.

Perhaps you don't realise that.

1/1500 of the population is gender dysphoric

What is your definition of gender dysphoric?

I note that the OP was concerned that there would be 'a lot' of inappropriate individuals 'taking advantage' of self-ID. Time for evidence to lead, I would suggest.

Have you read this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

No doubt readers will be aware of the highly publicised suicides of trans women prisoners kept on the male estate a short while back.

I'm not sure why you think women are service humans. Who exist to mop up the distress of men?

There are many vulnerable men in prison, gay men, old man, disabled men, disturbed men. Women aren't there to soak up these men's distress, or to protect them from other men.

Extraordinary.

A third space would be entirely possible in department stores and in many circumstances where there are public loos. A self-contained unisex cubicle/space would be useful to people other than transwomen, so where possible surely that is the best solution, in addition to maybe working on men's acceptance of difference among men and strategies for helping transwomen navigate a world where such a facility isn't immediately available? The starting point has to be that women's spaces are necessary and it is necessary for them to include only women, if we can go back to a position where this was accepted by all males, then we might be able to start finding soluti ons.

The suicide one is interesting. It seems perhaps that transwomen maintain the male success rate at suicide.

Males and females attempt suicide at similar rates. Women who have been victims of sex offences attempt suicide at rather a shocking rate. Women however have a lower success rate as they tend to chose less violent methods.

Anyway, the solution is not put them in the female estate but to provide a transwomen estate for them to use and to provide mental health support to help them. Since there is a simple solution that protects both transwomen and women at the same time. Let's go for that!

I have a question for any of you. If one of your children disclosed they felt they were trans (m to f or f to m) would that make you feel differently?

That's possibly many of us. I have a trans sibling. We are not simply being mean fcol. Was that a gotcha? I have thought about my position.