So much confusion over transgender issues

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

I suppose what I’m saying in a very simplistic way is if we are to start from TWAW, calling other women cis (incidentally, I have only seen cis used in a derogatory way) is othering the two groups ergo they are not the same and are two different sorts of women. It seems to me like doublespeak and turns the TWAW argument on itself.

If you say, Je Suis L'Empereur Napoléon

and I say, No you're not, and stop talking in that silly voice

Am I denying your existence?

OP all of it just meaningless shit and double speak.

You're right it doesn't make sense, the point of it is to try to make out that there are 'two different sorts of women' at all. You'll see lists 'white women, black women, trans women, Cis women, short women, tall women' ... no, there are women (who may be black, white, tall, short etc) but all female and then there are transwomen who are Male. 'Cis' is redundant. The definition is problematic too
'is a term for people whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth' - firstly, sex is determined before birth by genetics and fetal development, and secondly that women who recognise that gender stereotypes are bad reject the concept of having a 'gender identity'.

Women are females with unique characters, aptitudes and preferences.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after

Why?

Hi Shocked, welcome to feminism. I don’t believe in gender identity because it’s just a revival of the old sex stereotypes - “girls love pretty clothes, boys play with toy trucks”. But as a lifelong feminist, I have never met a woman who wanted to harm trans people in any way, let alone kill them as we’ve been accused of wanting to do. We just don’t want men taking our rights and invading our spaces.

The issue has become more urgent now that children (so easy to influence via social media and peer groups) are being roped in.

We have to keep pointing this out and challenging the new orthodoxy. It has become dangerous now, so you need to stay on the right side of the law.

Glad to have you on board.

My DS is at university and, apart from a vocal few, this isn’t a huge issue. Most of them don’t seem bothered with identity politics and give those vocal groups a wide berth.

I think perhaps you need to branch out and find more friends if you’re intimidated to this extent by the current group you hang out with.

Aesop, I also wondered why.

The reason why it's not a huge issue for most people is that they simply don't understand.

It's not transpeople that are a threat to women. It's men.

That's all.

But most people don't understand that by removing sex segregated spaces, you remove safeguarding.

You are effectively inviting all men into what were previously female only spaces.

In a nutshell faire!

I've met trans women in real life we agree that women should be protected that transition should be allowed to to take place (surgery) that after surgery they should be allowed to use the she pronoun we also agree that men are not welcome that relaxed rules = fetishes and rapists access and control to everything they shouldn't have access and control too she even said pre surgery she would sneak into the disabled toilet if free as to not violate womens spaces with penis but what we cannot get is an accord on how to proceed to protect people and places that should be protected because its impossible

All people should be protected and be able to live free from assault.

Trans women should feel safe in men’s spaces. They shouldn’t be ridiculed or subject to violence because they choose to live differently to other men.

Women and girls should be feel safe in women only spaces.

Men cannot become women regardless of and surgery or drugs. They remain men who have had surgery or who take drugs. They should be able to dress and do their hair how they want. They should feel free to call themselves whatever they want and shouldn’t be forced out of men’s spaces because of this.

But they are not two different sorts of women Shockedandbefuddled. Is that where your confusion is? I absolutely respect anyone's right to present themselves to the world as they see fit. Of course transpeople exist! But that doesn't change the reality of biological sex and the need for single sex spaces.

Transwomen are a sub group of men - adult human males. To quote transwoman Kristina Harrison:

"The process of having surgery or hormone treatment cannot ultimately transform your sex,” Ms Harrison told the tribinal. “Every cell in my body has male chromosomes. I have a prostate. These things cannot be completely deconstructed. It is not possible to be biologically female. But that does not mean I can’t live a fulfilling life being treated as a woman.”

There's a lot of talk about transwomen (transmen are seldom mentioned) being vulnerable, but little clarification about what those vulnerabilities are.

As I see it, transwomen may be vulnerable because of:

• Mental health
• Discrimination in housing and employment
• Exploitation through the sex trade
• Violent transphobic men

However, this vulnerability is not evenly distributed. It is more likely to apply to the more "feminine" male-attracted transwomen, the poor, the young, and racial minorities. Rich white middle-aged autogynophiles do not share this vulnerability.

Nobody is talking about the things that would really help vulnerable transwomen: funding mental health initiatives, providing housing, helping them get out of prostitution, and prosecuting violent men. Instead, the hammer comes down on the "evil t**fs" who are somehow responsible for issues outside their control.

Prepared to be flamed. Maybe I'm 'woke' but I don't stay awake at night worrying about my or my children's safety from trans people or the lack of women only spaces. I do worry about lots of other things - leaving the EU, employment opportunities for my kids, domestic abuse, violence on the streets, climate change etc.

I recently discovered someone very close to me has disclosed they are trans and all I feel for them after reading this thread is sadness and a need to protect them ☹️. They have been through mental hell for years and none of us can understand what they go through.

@releasethehounds no one else is worried about the person close to you being trans either. We all hope they get the help and support they need as trans people have done for decades. What we are worried about is (for example) ANYONE being able to say ‘I am a woman’ and being put into a woman’s prison. So a man who rapes women could say he’s a woman and be put in a woman’s prison.

We are worried about people abusing self identification NOT trans people.

A couple of posters have asked why I feel transgender people need to be looked after. I agree ‘looked after’ is probably a poor choice of words.

To clarify I think some, not all, transgender people are vulnerable. I have heard bad things said about both transmen and transwomen, not talking about MN and I know they do face discrimination as do many people.

This does not mean I think they should be ‘looked after’ more than or at the expense of others. I believe all vulnerable people should be supported and other posters have agreed.

I just cannot understand that by saying I think self ID is dangerous and could be abused makes me transphobic.

We are worried about people abusing self identification NOT trans people

Transwomen retain the same level of criminality as other men, 48% of Transwomen in prison are there for sex offences. They are also males. I don’t worry about them because they are trans, I worry about them because they are male.

And if a transwomen wishes to get changed in front of my daughter, I worry about the my daughter being exposed to penis, being intimidated, being unable to have boundaries or privacy and that this male thinks their right over-rules those of my daughter, that her feelings do not matter and that she is not entitled to boundaries. Males, trans or otherwise, who wish to get changed with my daughter are precisely the males who should be nowhere near her.

OP "I just cannot understand that by saying I think self ID is dangerous and could be abused makes me transphobic."

Oh I see! Yes, when I first joined this board, I said, hang on, I can see why someone might accuse me of being anti-men (because I believe men will abuse self ID to attack women) but I can't see how it makes me anti-trans. But apparently it does. So what can you do.

I'm not going to sit here worrying about whether or not I'm considered anti-trans or anti-men or whatever. The issue is much more important than what people choose to call me.

I am very careful what I say at work of course.

btw what does "looking after vulnerable people" mean? I feel as if "vulnerable people" has been extended to the point that I don't know who is not vulnerable any more.

releasethehounds if someone flashed at your DC when they were walking home from school, for example, would you be angry? Would you report it to the police?

Feminists have been demonized in all of this. I don't know any feminists who are "anti-trans". Of course trans people should have rights (they already do) but those rights shouldn't be allowed to override sex-based rights as women lose out.

Autumn rose, one of my daughters was flashed and followed by a cis man on her way to school. I was flashed by a cis man when I was at school. Why is someone trans any more of a threat?

I also don't understand the contradiction of being feminist. I have always been a feminist and I also support minorities.

And yes, the school reported it to the police in both cases.

Releasethehounds do you not realise that self-Id would entitle that flasher to share a changing room with your daughter? For teenage boys on trips to declare they are trans and share dormitories with her. To give just a couple of examples.