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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So much confusion over transgender issues

373 replies

Shockedandbefuddled · 14/02/2020 22:17

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

OP posts:
FleecyMoo · 15/02/2020 15:40

"Who am I protecting my children from? Potentially anyone! We all teach our kids the basics of safety; for me I've always been more worried about traffic.
I have a question for any of you. If one of your children disclosed they felt they were trans (m to f or f to m) would that make you feel differently?"

No. Should it? If so, why?

Also, I've never been run over in a changing room but it's always good to be aware I guess!

Datun · 15/02/2020 15:41

For the benefit of anyone who doesn't realise, many of the women who write on here are the children of transwomen, the siblings of trans people, and quite a few have trans identifying children.

AutumnRose1 · 15/02/2020 15:43

release do you mean “felt” they were trans?

Or actually had surgery? If they’ve had surgery then I am okay with them using the facilities that accounts for that surgery. Not thrilled, but okay.

But that has nothing to do with self ID.

releasethehounds · 15/02/2020 15:43

Apologies if I didn't answer the question so maybe I don't understand it, but Robyn answered for me. Just because someone is trans that doesn't make them more likely to be a flasher or abuser. Also I already stated I never allowed my children to be alone in a public swimming pool changing room.

Many trans people choose to change in disabled changing areas for fear of offending or being judged.

Nobody's answered my question yet. How would you feel if your child disclosed they were trans?

OldCrone · 15/02/2020 15:44

No doubt readers will be aware of the highly publicised suicides of trans women prisoners kept on the male estate a short while back.

Like this murderer?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-42415065

Ms Clarke said she had "no clue" that her friend would take her own life. She told the inquest jury that transgender prisoners were "bullied by staff" at the Serco-run prison, but "no-one was listening."

If the problem was that staff were bullying the transgender prisoners, it's not going to be solved by putting them in a women's prison.

AutumnRose1 · 15/02/2020 15:44

Datun, cross post

Yes, have transsexual friends, one sadly no longer here, in the past a transsexual colleague.

FleetsumNJetsum · 15/02/2020 15:45

Self-ID would not 'entitle' a flasher to share a changing room

Poor argument. As I said, being "subject to the full rigour of the law" is AFTER the fact. How about that old fashioned safeguarding, to keep women and girls safe?

Anyone exhibiting such behaviour would be subject to the full rigour of the law, and we HAVE self-ID at the moment, so this isnt a valid argument against proposed GRA reform, with great respect

I am surprised to hear self ID is now law??

And if you are going to respond with the 'space should be for genetic females only' response, then you need to deal with the 'identification' point
Again, as has been said before no we don't. Why do WE have to?

Men have to sort themselves out.

AutumnRose1 · 15/02/2020 15:46

release child disclosure of trans = much worry over medical aspect

But no change to other views

What are you getting at? Women on this thread are worried that men will self ID as women to get access to assault them.

FleecyMoo · 15/02/2020 15:47

release, it's a bit rich to expect anyone to answer your question when you don't answer put to you! Are you genuinely not understanding what is being said?

From whom are your special methods of protection protecting your DDs? Can you describe these people? Where might they be encountered?

RobinMoiraWhite · 15/02/2020 15:48

What is my definition of gender dysphoric? Those diagnosed with gender dysphoria. The relevant study made some assumtions about those who would have been diagnosed if they had come forward, IIRC.

I see that the usual pile-on is now beginning to occur. I regularly use different sports facilities which have both segregated and 'village style' change. I have to admit that before, during or after transition, I have never come across inappropriate behaviour. So my view is that it must be very rare indeed. And yes, I regularly read the threads here.

During transition I could be said to have been self-IDing to gain access to those spaces. Your position would be that I should then (and still) should be excluded?

OldCrone · 15/02/2020 15:50

Just because someone is trans that doesn't make them more likely to be a flasher or abuser.

But someone who is male is more likely to be a flasher or abuser.

wellbehavedwomen · 15/02/2020 15:50

What I find extraordinary about this is that it's a debate at all.

Every survey properly conducted says most women do not want natal males in their spaces. So women's clearly expressed preferences on fundamental aspects of our own lives are being wholly ignored. Because that suits a small group of male people. How is that acceptable? How is that anything but utterly misogynist?

The fact that some men are dangerous to other males who transgress gender norms is dreadful, and should be vigorously policed and punished. If third spaces are necessary to ensure that transwomen and transmen (because if a transwoman isn't safe in male provision, a transman sure as shit won't be) then those spaces should be provided. They'd help nonbinary people, transmen who feel unsafe in the men's and dysphoric in the women's, and fathers of daughters, too (urinals not ideal when taking a five year old for a pee). It would help any vulnerable individual. If the law mandates that all spaces above a certain size must create new Changing Places equipped disabled loos, with radar key locks, then existing disabled provision could be converted to unisex (while still remaining suitable for many disabled people, thus at a stroke doubling accessible provision). This would meet everyone's needs. Yet it's unpopular with some - some - transwomen. Because it does not meet their wish to have women's bodies around them in a single sex context, to validate their belief that they are one of us. This is a demand to use us, at our own risk and detriment, without reasonable justification and not just without, but actively contra, our consent. It's beyond me, how anyone can argue that that is acceptable. There is no justification in refusing third spaces because you want women as props. It's male patterned entitlement, pure and simple. The demand is that women should show what proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim can be shown. How about flipping that: what proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim can transwomen show here? What is the aim, and why is this means proportionate? Sufficiently to harm women in this very clear way?

The single best argument for the fact that almost everyone believes gender is binary is the insistence of those transwomen that we must either have unisex provision, or single sex with their then accessing the women's. If there were any sincere belief that gender is a spectrum, third spaces would be embraced as inherently validating that belief. Instead, they are seen as an insult. Even though it could meet the needs of a range of groups better (and in some cases is the only way that can at all) than any other solution.

Males don't belong in female spaces. Once you start breaking down that simple social contract, women lose the very provision that has enabled us to engage more safely and fully in the world. That should be a key and primary goal for anyone claiming an interest in human rights, because women are the most marginalised group in the world, despite being the largest. We commit vanishingly little crime compared to males, and the single biggest contributor to our safety and dignity and peace of mind is, accordingly, male-free spaces.

Rape, sexual assault, harassment and voyeurism are sadly incredibly common. Of course a large majority of men don't ever perpetrate such crimes, but those who do tend to have many victims. Women have a right to prevent as much risk as we can. It's so blindingly obvious that the best way to do so is to provide spaces segregated by sex, for all women who want that. Which is most of us. Why anyone thinks forcing a change that will harm so many women, to serve the wants of a small group of biological males, when a really obvious, universally respectful solution is there instead, is beyond me.

The stats show transwomen are less likely to be killed or harmed than females. They are clearly not more vulnerable. They have male physical advantage, too. So it's prioritising one group's feelings over another group's safety and feelings, and the sole identifiable reason for this is that the group whose needs are being prioritised are male. And as a society, we are conditioned to reflex level to always, always think about male wants and needs ahead of women's. To the point that a woman not doing so is seen as an oppressor.

releasethehounds · 15/02/2020 15:50

So the difference is if they had had surgery? Is it because you're worried your children will see a penis in a female changing room? Personally I would explain to my children that the person considered themselves trans and that would be it. If the fear of a penis is rape then people can still rape without having a penis.

Floisme · 15/02/2020 15:51

If any male family member or friend disclosed they were trans I would love and support them. I would not suddenly feel comfortable getting undressed in front of them, and I certainly wouldn't expect other women - who wouldn't even know them - to have to either.

OldCrone · 15/02/2020 15:52

What is my definition of gender dysphoric? Those diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

So do you believe that people should need to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria before they can declare that they are 'trans'?

OldCrone · 15/02/2020 15:53

During transition I could be said to have been self-IDing to gain access to those spaces. Your position would be that I should then (and still) should be excluded?

Do you believe you have changed sex?

Datun · 15/02/2020 15:53

If the fear of a penis is rape then people can still rape without having a penis.

No they can't. English law requires the presence of a penis for the crime to be called rape.

98% of a sexually violent crime is committed by men. It's really very simple. We segregate by sex to reduce risk in certain, limited circumstances, where women are particularly vulnerable.

Mockersisrightasusual · 15/02/2020 15:53

I order to flash you need some flashing equipment.

Most, if not nearly all sex offenders are male. Transwomen are certainly not less likely to be sex offenders than other male-bodied persons, and may well be more likely if the definition of 'trans' is self-ID for anyone including AGPs.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/02/2020 15:53

I have a question for any of you. If one of your children disclosed they felt they were trans (m to f or f to m) would that make you feel differently?

As others have said, there have been and are currently quite a few mothers of trans-identifying children on this board, and many of them have drawn great support and comfort from the women who regularly post on here.

Speaking for myself, there are no circumstances under which I would tell my son he had the right to violate the boundaries of women and girls.

And I think there must be vanishingly few parents who would encourage their young daughters to use male toilets and changing facilities etc.

Just like we never hear of biologically female trans prisoners asking to be housed in the male estate.

Ask yourself why that might be, Releasethehounds, won’t you?

wellbehavedwomen · 15/02/2020 15:54

Just because someone is trans that doesn't make them more likely to be a flasher or abuser.

That's dishonest. A transwoman is no more likely to be a flasher or abuser than a male. A transwoman is an order of magnitude more likely to be a flasher or abuser than a female.

There were 126 women in jail for sexual offences in 2016. There were 60 transwomen in jail for sexual offences in 2016. For the risk to be the same, you need to believe that there are sixteen million transwomen in England and Wales.

One in fifty prisoners in the male estate presently identify as women, and that's from Ministry of Justice figures. 95% of prisoners overall are male.

Saying transwomen don't pose any more risk than females is simply a lie.

OldCrone · 15/02/2020 15:56

Is it because you're worried your children will see a penis in a female changing room?

What would a penis be doing in a female changing room? Women don't have penises.

Personally I would explain to my children that the person considered themselves trans and that would be it.

You're very trusting. Do you believe everything everyone tells you?

Mockersisrightasusual · 15/02/2020 15:56

So many people still thinking of the old April Ashley definition of a transwoman.

midgebabe · 15/02/2020 15:57

Hounds I will answer the " your child " question as follows in brief

As a child many years ago, I thought I was a boy, gave myself a male name. Dressed as a boy. I still often am Male in my dreams. It was hard growing up. I had great supportive parents who helped me to be myself, to trust myself and to ignore stupid gender expectations and restrictions. I am now a happy gender none conforming geek/climber/woman.

I regularly socialised with another family. I recognised myself in their younger girl. A maths geek. A logically thinker who didn't get dressing up and make up. And I thought that growing up would be hard for her. Unlike me, her parents didn't get her. They couldn't understand her maths strength...even though her father held a math phd. I wanted to help, to be a role model , but Circumstances took our families apart. And surprise surprise, she is now he. And I feel I failed her. Totally.

And then I researched what such transboys need to go through to stand a chance of passing. And I saw how harmful that will be. And it breaks my heart, because I know there is another, better way to handle gender dysmorphia.

multivac · 15/02/2020 15:58

Personally I would explain to my children that the person considered themselves trans and that would be it
a) you wouldn't need to, as for some extraordinary reason you've made sure your children know never to be in a communal changing room. Can't imagine why.
b) 'considered themselves trans' - how transphobic! Do you not see how literally violent your words are?

IAmDudley · 15/02/2020 15:58

@releasethehounds no one said a trans person is more likely to be a flasher. What people are asking you is did you realise that the specific man who flashed you could say he is a woman and access female changing rooms and public toilets.

And if you think about it, why would he not? He doesn’t have to have counselling, surgery, shave, wear a dress, put on makeup, change him name etc he can just say ‘I am a woman’ and he has access to places there are women and girls changing where he can legitimately be/be naked.

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