So much confusion over transgender issues

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

You’ve gone through the crazy trans rabbit hole and landed on Mumsnet.

A lot of us have experienced the same thing.

Once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

Gin?

[ListeningQuietly]

Once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
This

I will continue on an individual level to support my friend

but never again will I accept the patriarchy that is being forced upon us by those who say that TWAW

[Facefullofcake]

I thought I was a trans ally and all GC folk were terrible bigots.

Then I discovered that I my new friend Karen was actually Karen Jones/Lawson (see @R0wantrees earlier post about them attempting rape on release from a manslaughter sentence).

That was the start of the scales falling from my eyes (and absolutely withdrawing from trusting other people).

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice. A rabbit hole indeed.

[GinUnicorn]

I agree. I totally dismissed views as transphobic but the debate has really opened my eyes.

I also don’t think I am transphobic by acting women need representation and a safe space. The trans community needs a safe space and a voice too but not by silencing women.

[Shockedandbefuddled]

But allowig self ID is madness. Why is it different from other protected groups - can I self ID as disabled and get a blue badge tomorrow? No, I may have many listed disabilities and medical reports but I do not get a blue badge because I say I am disabled.

[PreseaCombatir]

So should a person who was born male but is now no longer physically capable of rape

Point is vast majority of MTF are physically capable of rape.
There’s no way to tell who is and isn’t.
Other than checking before they enter.
Which I’m sure you’ll agree no one wants to do.
Best if we just keep them all out,eh?

[Justhadathought]

But allowig self ID is madness. Why is it different from other protected groups - can I self ID as disabled and get a blue badge tomorrow? No, I may have many listed disabilities and medical reports but I do not get a blue badge because I say I am disabled

All the talk is of 'trans rights', as if trans people do not have the same civil rights and protections as every other citizen. They do!

What the trans lobby actually want is additional rights to everyone else......and to encroach on the spaces of other protected groups ( women). You only have to listen to what Rebecca Long Bailey said today on the Andrew Marr show......Firstly, that there was no conflict of rights.....but that if there were, the trans rights were more important.

This sleight of hand is achieved by suggesting that women "ought not" to be bothered by the colonisation of their spaces...and that TWAW - making redundant single sex exemptions.

How is that not a conflict of rights?

[Justhadathought]

I also don’t think I am transphobic by acting women need representation and a safe space. The trans community needs a safe space and a voice too but not by silencing women

Third Spaces needs to become the mantra ( if we really must...) of the GC 'movement'.....and how could anyone possibly suggest this was unreasonable? Answer: That everyone must be forced to submit to an ideology - that it is possible to change sex - and a plea - for everyone ( women) " to be nice"

[Justhadathought]

I agree. I totally dismissed views as transphobic but the debate has really opened my eyes

Can you explain how that worked in your head? What was your pattern of thinking - and how did you arrive at it? Interested to understand?

[GinUnicorn]

Honestly a lack of consideration. I figured what harm is someone doing using women’s toilets and knowing the struggles of some transgender friends I framed it from their experiences.

When I started feeling concerned about safe guarding and did some research (a lot on mumsnet) I started to become aware of the wide reaching consequences. It’s not just about us being kind it’s about an erosion of rights. I completely see that now whereas before I felt it was good to be kind and inclusive even at my own discomfort.

[Justhadathought]

Best if we just keep them all out,eh

I understand your sentiment...but the problem is that the trans lobby launch on such sentiments to suggest that women are just unnecessarily fearful and hateful. However, it is really not just about safety and safeguarding - even though that is central for all, and especially for children and vulnerable women - but about the natural dignity, privacy and comfort that comes from single sex spaces There is no need to to portray all trans people ( or men) as dangerous sex criminals to justify single sex spaces.

[Justhadathought]

I completely see that now whereas before I felt it was good to be kind and inclusive even at my own discomfort

Thanks!

That;'s how it is portrayed, isn't it. all of the talk of vulnerability and suicide......without considering the unique vulnerabilities of being female, or the feelings of comfort, dignity and safety of women and girls......they can go hang, apparently - or just take lessons in being nicer.

[GinUnicorn]

I think it’s social conditioning too. As women we tend to be natural people pleasers and putting others feelings above our own. It’s hard conditioning to break. I still feel guilty in some ways for saying I want to keep single sex spaces single sex. It’s about more than just me though, it’s about a right to privacy dignity and safety which has to come first.

[ListeningQuietly]

Presea
The person I know had surgery over 30 years ago.
I know 'them' through their partner who is a very dear long standing friend
but that situation really makes me wonder how third spaces could ever work realistically
I agree with the point made last night that Fay Presto and Jan Morris (and my friend) are not Women
but they are also not men
so do we treat them like 19th Century Eunuchs and castrati?
I see no easy answers, I just see very confused people
surrounded by angry people

BUT
any decisions that impact on the choices and options of women have to be taken BY women with a due regard for the less articulate women
not by a bunch of woke wanabbees who do not read what is in front of them

[Justhadathought]

It’s about more than just me though, it’s about a right to privacy dignity and safety which has to come first

I think what you'll find as you dig deeper, though, is that it is not just about the safety and comfort of trans women ( let's face it - nobody talks about trans men - because they do not make so many demands), but about validation. Women are supposed, not only to shove over, but to validate and accept trans women as one of them - even to their own disadvantage ( such as in elite, and other, sporting competitions) and feelings of discomfort or distress.

[Justhadathought]

are not Women but they are also not men

......but they are still male

You see, the problem is with gender stereotypes......what do you mean by " not men"? Do you mean not dressing or displaying in stereotypical masculine ways? What do you mean?

[Justhadathought]

so do we treat them like 19th Century Eunuchs and castrati

I suggest we " treat them" like human beings, whilst still recognising they are not actually of the female sex.

The 'thing' about transgenderism is that it seems, so much, to hinge on how people want to be perceived and treated ( by society) rather than about what or who they really are.

[ListeningQuietly]

Justhad
OK so people like Jan and Fay and my friend are men.
And its a men's problem when they rock up at the cubicles
but how do we separate them and their fellow establishment figures
from the people who seem to want it all at the absolute expense of women

because somehow we need to make ourselves seen as the sane ones
which is not working at the moment

[GinUnicorn]

I agree @Justhadathought it’s been an interesting journey and very eye opening. I would never accept a trans woman being abused, discriminated against or harassed but I also can’t accept her pushing me out of my safe spaces or stealing my voice. There is a conflict of rights and I think acknowledgement is vital.

[CherryPavlova]

I still think it’s a man’s problem. Men need to be educated to accept those men who choose to dress in atypical ways, who have long hair, wear dresses etc.
The arguments should be about all men being comfortable in men’s spaces.
If a trans woman truly appears as a woman, rather than a gaudy parody, then nobody is going to bat an eyelid in a Marks and Spencer’s lavatory because nobody would know.

[DuLANGMondeFOREVER]

Toilets aren’t really the issue though, people nip in the opposite sexes loss all the time to avoid a queue or because they are bursting and can’t find the right one. We can’t realistically police the entrance to loos.
Most trans people I know will use a gender neutral option if it’s available anyway.

There are spaces that can be policed though, rape crisis and domestic violence shelters, hospital wards, prisons... I’m not saying your friend should be dumped in general population in a men’s prison, but perhaps a separate unit for vulnerable prisoners inside the male estate, or specific trans facilities.

Stonewall have enough dosh to fund LGBT shelters and services, Ls and female B’s should have the option of using a woman’s facility or an LGBT one.

To use a Magdalen Burnsism, ‘chopping your cock off’ doesn’t make a male into a female.

Women aren’t just dickless men, we are our own sex class and we have the right to organise and assemble as a class. For now, at least.

Males who have transitioned shouldn’t be eligible for all women shortlists, they cannot represent female people, they have no idea what it’s like to be born with a female body, to go through the stages of life as a female person, to birth children, or to be overlooked in your career just in case you might want to birth a child one day. They don’t go from being the main carer for small children to being the main carer for elderly parents, they don’t get overlooked in medical trials or live in a world designed for people who are bigger and stronger than them. Males who transition such as J Fae or H Belcher, or are ‘gender fluid’ such as Phillip/Pippa Bunce are supported in their careers by wives, wives that live authentic female lives in the sparkly shadow of their spouses.

[littlbrowndog]

Awesome du Lang. Jus5 fucking awesome post

[littlbrowndog]

And every time a woman gets pushed out

Women’s sport.

We get pushed out as we can’t compete against men and why would we have to.

[CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost]

omehow we need to make ourselves seen as the sane ones which is not working at the moment

I'd disagree.