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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Line Manager just "come out" as Non-binary

532 replies

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 07/02/2020 18:39

My line-manager emailed everyone in the office last week to say she was non-binary and we should use they/them pro-nouns.
Today I inadvertently called her she in an email to a colleague in another office, but line-manager was copied in, plus her line-manager. Are you keeping up? Confused
My line-manager responded to the email and added at the bottom a reminder about her pro-nouns.
I do not believe in the gender identity ideology and so object to being told to speak in an unnatural and incorrect way, but what I am incandescent about is being called out in front of 2 other colleagues.
Am I over reacting?

OP posts:
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5
statsgeek1 · 07/02/2020 19:43

Compelled pronouns are a bad idea. I suspect the vast majority of trans and non binary people navigating the world quietly as most do would be happy to be addressed by just their name. There aren't many phrases that can't be adjusted to use a name instead of a pronoun if you find using pronouns unpalatable.

I suspect though if you search the company handbook there will be something about respecting the reasonable expectation of dignity of other work colleagues.

Many companies have policies that workers are likely to disagree with albeit, I don't suspect you would be in a majority If you were to insist a personally held belief were respected and promoted even at the erosion of another colleagues dignity. I think there was a recent court case that rightly or wrongly delivered a long and detailed judgement along those lines?

That said, freedom of expression in a democratic country can not be played down. But, whilst it is very useful in cases that cause the most controversy such as Karen White, Muslim grooming gangs and sex offenders operating under the protection of the Catholic Church we do sadly live in a democracy which has an unsavory history of detestable discrimination stretching back a long time. Think Windrush, Section 28 and the export of intolerance towards trans people in India at the time of the empire for an example.

As such in my opinion it is then imperative that your perceived reluctance to respect the persons dignity or seek an agreeable alternative such as name use isn't glossed over. Alternatively we could accept on this one occasion that you made a genuine error. However, statements on a public forum such as 'I do not believe in the gender identity' may not prove helpful in unequivocally supporting that assertion.

Of course, it is your right to challenge it and put forward an argument however, if you are seeking to remove a courtesy from one minority and that is upheld, where does it stop? If it were hypothetically to result in a law change or policy change they wouldn't just remove the protection for the characteristic you don't like or agree with, they would just remove the protection full stop. As in the recent court case, a freedom granted for the lady to openly state her disagreements and beliefs with regards to trans people openly in her office, even to the discomfort of others would have also given open season to any misogynistic swine to claim a protected belief about the superiority of males when wrongly denigrating and harassing a female colleague. A bit of a case of sometimes it's worth being careful about what you wish for.

I'll state again, I believe compelled speech is wrong and the demand or expectation of a pronoun is wrong but, in this particular case I truly believe it Is non controversial enough for you to find a way around it, e.g. using just their name in an effort to both maintain their dignity and ensure your belief remains intact.

Perhaps that isn't reasonable, who knows?

anappleadaykeeps · 07/02/2020 19:44

What would be expected in France when I thought (very rusty memories of school French lessons) everything had to be male or female, there wasn't a gender neutral option?

Jayaywhynot · 07/02/2020 19:45

Reply with this emoji 🙄 , I use it all the time and it irritates the hell out of whoever irritated me first

terfsandwich · 07/02/2020 19:45

Write that you have thought at lrngth about pronouns but have decided that because your feelings of non-binary are so sincere and deeply held that you don't want to undermine them by forcing people to walk on eggshells around you.

HandsOffMyLangCleg · 07/02/2020 19:46

So what would happen if you chose a preferred pronoun of say 'it' and this was adopted in emails?

'Jo contacted me yesterday. It felt uncomfortable.'

What felt uncomfortable? The person or the atmosphere?

Hmm
T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 07/02/2020 19:47

I would quietly come out as non binary too - perhaps in a reply to the email thread with the other two colleagues copied in. However I would add that you choose to continue with sex-based pronouns because it can be confusing and distressing for some people, notably people with autism, to be compelled to change the way they use the English language.
Out woke her!

This! As for al, that bullshite about “respect, be nice, be considerate, it would be kind.” Funny how it only ever goes one way, isn’t it?

PineappleDanish · 07/02/2020 19:51

I'm so glad I'm self employed as I couldn't be doing with all that shite either. I don't believe that anyone can change sex but if someone goes to the effort of a double mastectomy and takes hormones to make a beard grow, I'll play along and say "him".

I don't believe in gender, I don't identify as anything or any gender and no, that doesn't mean I'm fluid or non-binary or that shite it just means I don't believe in gender. Non-binary and gender fluid and all that sort of nonsense if just self-absorbed LOOK AT ME behaviour.

BacklashStarts · 07/02/2020 19:51

How did she do it? I think if she was really dickish it’s different to a gentle FYI

Mummyoflittledragon · 07/02/2020 19:51

terfsandwich
Your out woke response is genius!

Clymene · 07/02/2020 19:52

I know it's possible Gaspode but I find it absolutely infuriating that someone's pronouns are more important to them than making a document understandable to the people it's aimed at. Because I work hard to write in plain English. A lot of people don't.

It's like those fucking leaflets telling people to get a cervical smear which don't mention women because they don't want to offend transwomen. Prioritising people who aren't even the intended audience of communications for fear of offending them is just insane. It's the insidious creep creep creep of compelled speech.

I won't do it.

PatellarTendonitis · 07/02/2020 19:53

Get another job! In the meantime, refer to her by her name and in sentences such as the one given about Angela and the committee, refer to her as 'the former' or 'the latter' as appropriate. 'They' is a plural pronoun. We are not Borg.

TheRealMcKenna · 07/02/2020 19:56

You must ensure you are grammatically correct at all times.

“They has asked me to contact you to arrange a meeting. They was very disappointed about the lack of response to the campaign they is involved with.”

ddraigygoch · 07/02/2020 19:57

It just looks awful. How has this happened?!

Bluerussian · 07/02/2020 19:58

I hate all this 'they' and 'them' business. There was a woman on here the other day talking about her husband as 'they' and it got quite confusing at times, sounded like there was more than one. At the end she said, 'husband' so we knew.

Non binary people are still biologically male or female

Absolutepowercorrupts · 07/02/2020 19:59

The thing is they are not her pronouns, she is not using them. You are. Your speech belongs to you. Not her. As pp have said she is trying to force you to address her in her chosen way. It would cause me mental stress to try and refer to another person as them, they, it's all kinds of wrong.
To those who say, well it's just being kind. Where is her kindness to you? She wants you to use unnatural language. She is trying to compel your speech.
Being kind has got women into a bit of a mess, so from me Fuck being kind. No, would be my answer. No fucks given here, they've gone away.

nonsenceagain · 07/02/2020 20:00

Can you use initials? We do in my work. So: 'MS called a meeting for 2pm today. Mary wants to discuss...'
Still clunky but maybe better than saying Mary or Mary Smith* every time.

*random names.

cottonwoolbrain · 07/02/2020 20:01

"They" dealt with it badly. "They" should just have dropped you a note saying

Hi Spinning

I know its difficult at first but just wanted to remind you I'd like people to refer to me as "they" rather than she from now on, I'm sure you just slipped up and you'll get used to it in time.

Thanks

Line manager

The arrogant way she dealt with it understandably put your hackles up.

I agree with others "they" is so hard to use in language "They saw Jack and Maria in the park, they really had fun and so did they"

What confuses me is the need to use a plural pronoun for an individual. Its rather reminiscent of the royal We

Ah well... perhaps I'm just old and fuddy duddy Grin

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 07/02/2020 20:01

I would quietly come out as non binary too - perhaps in a reply to the email thread with the other two colleagues copied in. However I would add that you choose to continue with sex-based pronouns because it can be confusing and distressing for some people, notably people with autism, to be compelled to change the way they use the English language.
Outwoke her!

Genius!!! ROFL!!!!!

OP posts:
T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 07/02/2020 20:02

Actually, referring to the self obsessed twit as ‘they’ on any communications might cause serious issues if there are any legal issues and communications between her and staff needs to be used as evidence. If you use the plural to talk about her, then that could be translated in any legal actions as including other people and not just her. That would be an interesting situation to watch. 😁

SeaWitchly · 07/02/2020 20:02

I would quietly come out as non binary too - perhaps in a reply to the email thread with the other two colleagues copied in. However I would add that you choose to continue with sex-based pronouns because it can be confusing and distressing for some people, notably people with autism, to be compelled to change the way they use the English language.
Outwoke her!

This! This is the perfect response. And has the benefit of being true too. Non-binary could refer to most people surely, particularly those who identify as feminist?

Muchtoomuchtodo · 07/02/2020 20:03

I’m glad it’s not just me that finds this way of addressing people can be very confusing as it isn’t grammatically correct.

I can imagine that if I was in the same situation and pointed this out, that I would be made to look like I was being difficult and disrespectful (large public sector organisation about to start values based appraisals) rather than simply trying to write in clear English.

I love *terfsandwich’s’ idea. Do you think you could do that op?

BlueJava · 07/02/2020 20:05

YABU it costs you nothing, and shows you respect them and their decision. However, my personal view for the workplace would be "So what?" as I don't see it makes any difference. Much the same as Philip Schofield's announcement today - it affects his wife and kids, but not most of the population.

ddraigygoch · 07/02/2020 20:06

@BlueJava but what about those people who don't respect the decision?

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 07/02/2020 20:07

Actually, if you use terfsandwich’s suggestion, and I really hope you do, I would add the fact that having autism, Aspergers is a protected characteristic.

BlackForestCake · 07/02/2020 20:09

Leave your politics and the door and put your manners on and behave in a polite way back by respecting this person's feelings.

Why doesn't this person behave in a polite way by respecting reality, which is that she is female?

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