Line Manager just "come out" as Non-binary

[SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff]

My line-manager emailed everyone in the office last week to say she was non-binary and we should use they/them pro-nouns.
Today I inadvertently called her she in an email to a colleague in another office, but line-manager was copied in, plus her line-manager. Are you keeping up?
My line-manager responded to the email and added at the bottom a reminder about her pro-nouns.
I do not believe in the gender identity ideology and so object to being told to speak in an unnatural and incorrect way, but what I am incandescent about is being called out in front of 2 other colleagues.
Am I over reacting?

Goady again, old crone.

Pointing out that you haven't answered any of my questions is goady?

You see I have learnt not just to do something just because I am told to "just out of respect"

Respect in my mind has to be earned and if someone is making a thing about gender, I find that quite hurtful and offensive. So since they are asking me to do something that hurts me, I think, hum, they don't deserve that respect

See I spent years battling gender , being bullied and belittled because of gender , so any emphasis of gender, any suggestion that I need to fit into some or other gender category I find distressing

May 2019 thread about judiciary 'Bench Book' instructions:
(extract)
"New guidelines state that ‘self-definition is the most important criteria’ and courts should respect a person’s gender identity by using appropriate names and pronouns.

The rules, published in a new edition of the Equal Treatment Bench Book, say courts should not reveal a defendant’s birth gender and that in ‘rare’ cases where disclosing a previous sex is necessary, judges should take the court into secret session or impose reporting restrictions."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3591213-Mail-article-Judges-are-ordered-to-allow-transgender-defendants-to-be-addressed-as-the-gender-of-their-choice-during-court-appearances

Did IBanana
Yes I did, see my copy paste below 👍

BananabixfloofSat 08-Feb-20 09:19:07

@Eckhart
Ok your trying to prove that you can remember to be nice and call the correct people by the correct pronouns
So for future references my pronouns on this board anywhere;- I, me mine
So if you see me anywhere on

R0wantrees, just having a peripheral eyeroll at Stonewall for suggesting the use of YouTube stories in classrooms. I don't know a single school where YouTube isn't behind a firewall...

I confidently await the classful of Y11 students - or younger - who, after reading a Stonewall-approved school policy, all simultaneously decide they're gender fluid and sit down together to invent 20 or more different pronoun sets for staff to learn and use. They can change their preferred names, too, of course. And then sit back, wait, and complain every single time a staff member slips up. And being 'fluid' their names and pronouns can of course change on a whim, even during a lesson.

"You've just dead-named me, Mrs Bloggs! That's a hate crime. You called me (name I preferred 15 minutes ago) but my name is (name I just thought of). You're a bigot and I'm reporting you.

The moment some brave principal steps into the room and tells them they're being very silly girls and boys gender fluid individuals and the game is over, O.V.A.H. over, is the day the house of cards comes crashing down. If everyone's special, no-one's special. Wise teachers will get in first.

Cultural revolution, anyone?

Banana
Thank I.

@anappleadaykeeps Apologies if your question on page 1 has been answered upthread. I've tried to RTFT but computer has crashed twice in the process so I don't know whether I've missed some posts.

The use of non-gendered language in Romance languages is an issue under debate, although it mostly has moved more slowly than in English. The most cutting-edge differences are in Spanish, where Spanish-speaking US residents are pushing the change. Some advocate the use of x as a singular ending to replace o and a. So Latinx instead of Latina or Latino. Others go for an @ sign, so Latin@. How to pronounce these is also under debate. Although a friend who works as a lexicographer in this area did some research on it a few years ago and I think came to a conclusion, but I can't remember what is was. This hasn't really spread to other Spanish-speaking countries although I think think a very limited number of people might use it. My Spanish isn't fluent so I'm not sure exactly how common the use of the x or @ ending is, my impression is not very.

French has a variety of non-gendered pronouns which people who define as non-binary use. None of them are common and they have been rejected by the Académie Française. Most French-speakers probably would never have had to use them. There is also something called épicène language (I believe epicene is also a word in English, but you don't hear it used much) which tries to avoid using gendered language wherever possible, without inventing new words. It's relatively easy compared to some languages because French commonly uses 'on' ('one) in situations where English would use they/we/you. Epicene language is recommended in Canada, but again the Académie are not keen in France, it's increasingly common though and almost universally used to some degree (to what degree varies a lot). I don't know much about other francophone countries.

The other main debate in France is over whether a plural adjective should always be masculine if one or more of the nouns is masculine (which had been the case since the 17th century and is what you would have learned at school) or whether it should agree with the gender of the noun closest to it (which was the case before the 17th century). Again, it's not something which has achieved widespread acceptance, most people still use what they were brought up with.

R0wantrees, just having a peripheral eyeroll at Stonewall for suggesting the use of YouTube stories in classrooms. I don't know a single school where YouTube isn't behind a firewall...

I confidently await the classful of Y11 students - or younger - who, after reading a Stonewall-approved school policy, all simultaneously decide they're gender fluid and sit down together to invent 20 or more different pronoun sets for staff to learn and use. They can change their preferred names, too, of course. And then sit back, wait, and complain every single time a staff member slips up. And being 'fluid' their names and pronouns can of course change on a whim, even during a lesson.

I thought the same.
The people writing Stonewall school resources, just as with the CPS school Hate Crime guidance, really dont seem to have much meaningful experience of teaching in schools or childen just as they seem not to understand Safeguarding.

threads
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3809302-CPS-school-hate-crime-guidance-we-must-complain

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804613-New-Year-New-Judicial-Review-CPS-Hate-Crime-Guidance-for-schools

OMG the fun.
So who wants what pronouns.
Come on and list them.
We need a new thread for pronouns. Then no excuses for getting it wrong.

Can I be Thing (1)?

I always liked Dr Seuss. Or missus (I am from Glasgow after all(.

Can I be Thing

I always liked Dr Seuss. Or missus (I am from Glasgow after all
Of course, Thing it is
So thing pronouns are, thing, missus.
Fabulous

I wonder if the LM is actually non-binary, or just a highly manipulative individual who is trying to cover up for their (!) incompetence by being "unassailable"? I've dealt with a few cases like that in my time (I had a long-ish career in management including a few years in HR).

On Friday evening, on page 2 of this thread, the OP wrote "She has had long periods of sickness, but was able to complete an album for her band during her last one as well as perform on stage at gigs". (Sorry, I don't know how to quote text from a previous post so it comes out in bold.) Maybe it would be possible to find out whether the LM, when being a member of this band (or elsewhere in public) also insists on being called "their", or whether it's just a 9-to-5 identity? If things start kicking off for the OP HR-wise (or employment tribunal-wise), it would be a pretty strong defence to discover that the LM doesn't appear to mind if anyone apart from work colleagues uses "she" and "her".

The more I think about it the more I think we should do away entirely with sex or gender-related pronouns. Other than historic language what is actually the point in referring to people as he/she?

I'm confused also about how this non binary stuff works in France referring to people as 'they' whereas objects are 'la' and 'le'. So 'they' would be tapping away on le (masculine) computer 🤷🏻‍♀️

The more I think about it the more I think we should do away entirely with sex or gender-related pronouns. Other than historic language what is actually the point in referring to people as he/she?

2017 Dr Julia Long's speech on the importance of naming & identifying power dynamics in context of feminist history & development of women's services:

(extract)
"So why then is it important to make this distinction between sex and gender and why is it important to name men as men? Naming men as man was such a vital part of the women's liberation movement and feminist scholarship back in those early days. There were lots of books that had 'silence' in the title or essays that had 'silence' in the title because it was about women breaking the silences of our own lives and naming who was doing what to whom, and then seeing that there were patterns of this and that is how feminist theory emerged. So it's really crucial to name men as men because that is how we develop an understanding and an analysis of patriarchy. That's how. If we can't name men as men then we can't name patterns of male violence, we can't name who is in control.

So naming men as men, then, enables us to answer these kinds of questions: Who controls economic, social, political and cultural systems and institutions? In whose hands does this kind of economic and social and political power lay? Well, if we can name men as men then we can see exactly where it lies. And it also helps us to answer the question, who's doing what to whom? And so again, over decades, feminists have answered that question in terms of looking at what we know women are subjected to under patriarchal power relations between women and men: femicide, female infanticide, sex-selective abortion, female genital mutilation, rape, sexual assault, domestic violence, poverty, economic disadvantage, prostitution, pornography, discrimination, objectification - I'm thinking here in addition to all the sex industry, but just the normalised objectification of high heels and make up and cosmetic surgery and all of this stuff - illiteracy - hugely more of the world's poor and illiterate are women rather than men - denial of reproductive rights, exploitation of reproductive and domestic labour ... I mean that was just a kind of quick list off the top of my head" (continues)

pastebin.com/nGwr3i4U

transcribed by PencilsinSpace H/t
(copywrite permissions granted)

@Teateaandmoretea, I posted above about French. With regards to the gender of a common noun, it doesn't really relate to human sex/gender. That's mainly a conception of learners from languages which don't have grammatical gender (such as English); French-speakers (mostly) don't see it as related.

Oh, come on, Teateaandmoretea, be reasonable: if we can't do "he said, she said," how are people going to know who they instinctively believe? How will they take sides? 😏

A judge told Maria McLachlan to refer to her attacker as she. That’s as close to compelled expression of something you don’t believe as you can get.

Under oath too. What are the Judiciary guidelines on perjury in this context?

With regards to the gender of a common noun, it doesn't really relate to human sex/gender.

For example, in German 'Der, die, das' are designated as masculine, feminine and neuter - but 'the girl' is 'das Mädchen' I think?

Finding this hard to work out - what do you mean by drag? Cannot imagine what someone who Is non binary would wear as drag.

Also wonder if being non binary is part of playing the system if she is aware her work is being scrutinised.

OP, I wanted to check if you're planning to speak to your union or HR tomorrow. Sorry, I've had a quick look through the thread but it has grown enormously during the day, so I hope I haven't missed an update on that.

I've been thinking about it a lot. I think you do need to speak, probably to HR first, about the difficulties you're having with your LM's work style (I've been trying to find a better expression to use in front of HR than "her negligence and incompetence", true though that is!).

I don't think you should mention the pronouns thing, which is just a bit of extra stupidity. You don't want her or HR to have even the tiniest bit of ammunition against you.

If HR mention the pronouns, you could just shrug and say you're more concerned about the work flow. Or, you've added that to the list of things you're doing to try to make life easier for her (and have that list ready to recite), but these are all adding a lot to your workload and the stress you're under.

And, if they don't know about her gigging and completing an album while on sick leave, you should tell them. This came up on another thread recently and reminded me of how much one piss-taking colleague can damage a small team.

But mainly, I really would advise not mentioning the pronouns, and playing that down if HR bring the subject up.

Very best of luck, whatever you decide to do. I'll be thinking of you, with fingers crossed for your success.

For example, in German 'Der, die, das' are designated as masculine, feminine and neuter - but 'the girl' is 'das Mädchen' I think?

All words ending in -chen in German are neuter (i.e., take the article "das" in the subjective form). More generally, in most languages that have genders, it's the word, not the thing described, that has a gender. The most common vulgar word for a penis in French is "la bite" (French people on holiday in the UK love taking pictures of places called the "Big Bite Snack Bar") and the standard word for a vagina is "le vagin". A person is "la personne" but people are "les gens", masculine. A car is either "un auto" or "une voiture".

Incidentally, the Germans have made their own attempts to eliminate what they see as gender-oppressive language. Consider, for example, the word "Arbeiter" (worker, labourer). It is inherently gendered in a way that doesn't arise in the general case in English, and so there has also always been "Arbeiterin" for a women worker. (Like actor and actress in English, but you can add "-in" to pretty much any job title, including new ones that have just been invented, just as you can make them plural.)

Now, to be inclusive, if you are describing a hypothetical worker, you should say "Arbeiter oder Arbeiterin", but that's a bit long. So a few years back, someone came up with the idea of "ArbeiterIn", where the capital I hints that you should go back to the start of the word (because all nouns in German start with a capital letter), very much like "D.C. al Coda" in musical notation. So it fits "Arbeiter" and "ArbeiterIn" into one word.

But then someone pointed out that this format excludes non-binary (etc etc) people. So a star gets added for them: "ArbeiterIn". If you take this to its logical conclusion, to refer to members of Islamic State you should use "IS-MitgliederInnen", which nicely avoids oppressing all of the genderqueer suicide bombers out there (whom IS of course embraces with open arms, to save them from the kind of awful persecution meted out to the OP's line manager).

Spinning thank you.
Yes there is a lot of detail on here.

Thinkingaboutits approach seems very sensible. Don’t give her any ammunition against her. Hope it goes ok today.