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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
testing987654321 · 31/01/2020 07:05

Absolutely agree.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 07:14

I agree with everything you have said. As my understanding of the actual GRA process has grown (thanks, in part, to some of the trans people who post here), I've realised that self-id is already in force and my position has moved closer to a 'Repeal the GRA' stance, or at least a complete overhaul of it.
I think creating separate legally recognised categories of trans woman and trans man (or a suitably equivalent label) can be useful for those wanting a trans status but without having to invoke the absolute absurdity of changing sex on the birth certificate.

I can understand the reticence of those involved in public facing campaigns, though. It's a lot harder to completely repeal an existing law than it is to stop new ones from being passed. So many people have very little knowledge of the GRA and how it actually works, and feminists and others have had to familiarise themselves in so many areas in a very short time frame.
It's taken me about two years to really get my head around it all! It fell into place when I started to understand that self-id has been in place all along.

I would hope that the short-term goal is to stem the current trans lobby wave and prevent further changes to the GRA, while the long-term goal should be to repeal it.
Probably more grassroots feminist groups can spread public awareness as to what is actually involved in getting a GRC and how trivial it actually is and why the GRA needs to be completely repealed now that we have same sex marriage and the age for state pension between men and women have been equalised.

StealthMama · 31/01/2020 07:26

Repealing though wouldn't solve the official validation that many trans people need.

And whilst no actual transition needs to have started they need to have lived as the transitioned sex for 2 years, this would change to 6 months.

What alternative would you propose that meets the skids toon needs whilst safeguarding women? It's a psychological need more than it is a legal one.

I think your theory of opposition strategy potentially has legs, if the legalities of the GRA are no longer valid, like pension rights etc. Plus the WHO are changing trans from being a psychological dysphoria condition, which needs to be considered too.

HandsOffMyLangCleg · 31/01/2020 07:29

Agree completely.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 31/01/2020 07:59

@DonkeySkin I agree with you.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 08:13

Sorry but I think it's completely unrealistic. Not a single politician is behind repealing the GRA, not even the rightest of the right wing ones have suggested it.

As the GRA has been law since 2004 it would be much more controversial than repealing say gay marriage.

Also where does it leave all the people who have legally transitioned and are living as their acquired gender? Would they be forced to de-transition?

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 08:18

I'd imagine existing GRCs would remain valid, but it would not be possible to issue new ones. There can be a period where it is phased out.

I've mentioned before of other countries implementing a third gender that is legally recognised. This seems to be the fairest method possible to ensure trans people have legal recognition and rights, without invoking absurdities that humans can change sex and the pointlessness of sex based rights and protections if anyone can change their birth certificate.

terryleather · 31/01/2020 08:21

Agreed Donkeyskin

testing987654321 · 31/01/2020 08:38

Interesting ideas about legal recognition of trans people in their own right without pretence of changing sex.

Barracker · 31/01/2020 09:08

No argument from me, Donkeyskin, very well written.
I've been arguing for #RepealTheGRA for a while now for all the reasons you so eloquently outlined.
The concept seems shocking only because women are unaccustomed to taking the stance that is less concessionary. I've had other women tell me they wish it could be repealed but couldn't possibly argue it for fear of being seen to be too intransigent.

But the more the argument is heard, the less it begins to seem extreme. And the more people give themselves permission to consider it as an option.

It only seems extreme because everyone is thinking noone could possibly ever admit that we might one day say no to men demanding we 'recognise' them as female on their birth certificates.

It needs courage to spearhead a change in the 'received wisdom' and those who start to shift the narrative will inevitably be seen as bullish, unreasonable, hard-line, unbending, unstrategic, and told they are risking any potential gain by asking for too much.

But then the Ovary Window starts to shift. There is space behind the pushers for the 'moderates' to gain confidence to say, actually, this thing we've been asking for, is this really the outcome we truly want as a society?

We screwed up in 2004. Engineered a legally sanctioned preposterous lie, with our fingers crossed that the enormous lie could be shackled and kept under control.
It escaped, mutated, bred, multiplied exponentially and is now running wild causing havoc.

Time to put the lie to sleep. It was a bad idea, bad law, and it can't be made good.
Laws need to recognise reality, not pretend a lie is true and try to compel a society to play along, with punishment for those who will not lie.

Barracker · 31/01/2020 09:12

Oh, and I think it would be entirely possible to grandfather in all current GRC holders following any change in law. It wouldn't be my preference, but it could be done. Although I can think of a few rapists/murderers that a good case could be made for their 'female' status to be revoked.

womanaf · 31/01/2020 09:13

Absolutely.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 31/01/2020 09:21

The only way you should be able to amend the sex on a birth certificate is if it was recorded incorrectly e.g. administrative error or a wrongly diagnosed intersex condition.

But what about adoption? Isn't that another type of legal fiction albeit one with a very important purpose? Maybe the birth certificate should be left unchanged with an adoption certificate to show who the new legal parents are.

Anyway I don't know just wondering aloud if incorrect facts even if well intentioned really are for the best.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 09:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 31/01/2020 09:28

Agree entirely, Donkeyskin. It is not possible to change sex and does everyone a disservice to pretend one can.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 09:44

I think repealing the GRA is essential! Laws cannot be based on lies.

Yes transexual people exist & have done for millennia, but laws must reflect reality.

I see no reason why a bad law cannot be repealed.

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 09:50

The official validation that many trans people need.

Why? Why official validation rather than the freely-given respect of those around them in return for mutal respect and observing other people's boundaries?

Repeal the GRA

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 09:57

Equal rights means asking to be treated the same as everyone else, for example, the reasoning behind same sex marriage.

No one else is allowed to change their sex on their birth certificate. Therefore what is being demanded is not a right, but a privilege.

AsCoolAsLangCleg · 31/01/2020 10:01

Agree, the GRA is unfit for purpose. Transgender people can and should be protected in law as transgender people.

Datun · 31/01/2020 10:14

I agree, too.

I can't imagine how anyone allowed themselves to be persuaded that pretending someone was actually the opposite sex could be sustained.

And, as Barracker says, the lie has now metamorphasised to become an unrecognisable tool of intimidation and boundary violation.

And, it's never going to stop. Because those who want to intimidate, will find any tool possible.

The GRA needs repealing. The lying needs to stop.

There are other cultures where a 'third sex' is recognised. Although, as I understand it, they are generally quite homophobic, and it's a means of accepting effeminacy in men.

I'm unaware of any cultures where fetishistic cross dressing is officially recognised and given extra rights?

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 10:20

For the argument to be at all persuasive, there would need to be concrete examples of what actual harm has occurred in the last 16 years to justify repealing the GRA.

These arguments would have to outweigh all the positives for transgender people.

Bar a few exceptional cases (Karen White) I am struggling to think of any?

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 10:29

Yes, cultures that enforce additional genders usually do so because femininity in men is despised and it is a way of pushing non-conforming men into a separate category. There are a few similar ones for non-conforming women, but much rarer.

Personally, I don't think the concept of trans is useful at all, however some people insist trans is a valid phenomenon that must be recognised. In which case, a separate 'third' gender seems like a reasonable compromise.
As long as we are not perpetuating lies such as people can change from one sex to another, and as long as women's sex based rights are protected, I don't really care how transgender people sort out their own legal recognition.

Only a male can be a trans woman.
Only a female can be a trans man.
That is the only definition / criteria needed to obtain any legal paperwork to gain a 'trans' status.

OhHolyJesus · 31/01/2020 10:41

I always wonder why people says laws can't be changed, they are barely enforced, of course they can be changed.

People born with DSD could have an I or an * along with an F or an M on their birth certificates.

Those with GRCs could keep them but they would not be legally recognised for the purposes of accessing single sex spaces of the opposite sex.

This began decades ago with the Beaumont Society and Press for Change, as if it was all an innocent request and not the foundation of this terrible mess. Women were not asked, to use an often cited prefix, AS A WOMAN I do not consent.

I agree OP. Now we are aware of inadequacy of the GRA 2004 we can campaign to have it scrapped.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 31/01/2020 10:43

I agree. I just don’t think the state should be in the business of handing out birth certificates that do not reflect reality. The GRC did not create a problem when we were talking about a few thousand transsexuals but it’s a disaster when we are talking about hundreds of thousands of individuals gaining a birth certificate that does not reflect their biological sex on the basis of a declaration only.

I think that formal recognition of a ‘third sex’ and also working on cultural attitudes so that there is more acceptance of males presenting in non traditional ways by other males could be a way forward. Maybe a GRC could be issued but without a changed birth certificate to separate sex and gender. For most purposes the individual is treated as a member of their acquired gender unless there is a sex based exemption.

Does anyone ever ponder that compared to Victorian times women regularly dress like men - jeans/T shirts/trainers etc and this is OK. However when males dress as women this is not acceptable. Is this because women wearing men’s clothes are ‘acting up’ ?

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 10:43

SapphosRock what is the point of sex based rights if anyone can change the sex marker on their birth certificate?

How are sex based exemptions meant to be enforced if you are not allowed to ask to see someone's GRC or disclose that they have one?

We have males taking spaces meant for women on shortlists, taking awards and recognition in sports and business, being allowed into prisons and shelters and other services meant to be single sex.
Women are losing out to resources or feeling intimidated to access services that should prioritise them.
I am immensely offended as a woman in STEM who works in a male dominated environment, that a trans woman can usurp any recognition and awards for women having faced none of the sex based challenges and biases that women in STEM usually do.
I think there are real harms to women and their opportunities that are not being adequately studied or reported on because it's considered too controversial these days.

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