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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:06

Ask anyone in the Catholic Church or most of COE for that matter. They will tell you a marriage is between a man and a woman and any deviation from this is a false narrative.

If an adult human male feels they cannot live their authentic life without presenting to the world as a woman then that is fine... as long the law recognises they are not actually female. Which it does.

The EA exemptions recognise that transsexual women are not in fact female by highlighting the instances where it is lawful to treat trans women differently.

People should not be afraid of the law and apply these exemptions, particularly when it comes to vulnerable women and women's sport.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:09

sapphos do you think it's right to officially recognise a fetish, by being able to have a certificate endorsing it?

I see fetishes and gender dysphoria as two very separate things. They may come under the same 'trans' umbrella but no GR panel is going to approve an applicant with a fetish.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:10

I see fetishes and gender dysphoria as two very separate things. They may come under the same 'trans' umbrella but no GR panel is going to approve an applicant with a fetish.

You're kidding, right?

How do you think they tell the difference?

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:14

If a fetish has progressed to officially changing ones name and going to work under a new identity as a woman for two years then it's a bit more than a fetish isn't it? That would suggest the individual is genuinely dysphoric.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:20

Perhaps you haven't read the transwidows threads?

Living full-time in female clothing, absolutely can be the result of AGP.

AGPs are plastered from one end of the Internet to the other, all thoroughly enjoying their anatomy.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:21

But I'm still interested in this.

but no GR panel is going to approve an applicant with a fetish.

How do they tell?

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:24

Also, who says they wear women's clothing full time? A lot of them don't. Doesn't stop them getting a GRC.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:31

It's an interesting point Datun, but I thought the very nature of a AGP fetish was being turned on by wearing women's clothes. That seems very different and distinct from actually wanting to be a woman.

Many women are turned on by watching lesbian porn, doesn't mean they actually want to be lesbians.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:44

I don't think it's the clothes per se, as being turned on by the thought of oneself as a woman, which consequently involves the clothes.

Hence the term autogynephilia. Being in love/lust with yourself as a woman.

Anne Lawrence, an AGP, actually called their book becoming what we love.

Also, as Miranda Yardley, another transwoman says, where have all the cross dressers gone? Following it up with they've become transwomen. Many of whom are desperate for a GRC, as the ultimate validation.

Another reason why the GRA should be scrapped. Many men seeking a GRC will want it to endorse their fetish. That cannot be right, in anyone's book.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying AGP applies to all transwoman.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 18:02

Datun AGP individuals seeking a GRC for validation is an uncomfortable thought I agree, but other people's thoughts are not something that can be policed.

Also part of me is inclined to think 'so what?' if an AGP individual is in love with the idea of feeling like a woman. As long as it's a personal feeling and not affecting other women then it's harmless.

As long as these people continue to be separated by law from adult human females when it matters (EA exemptions) then they can crack on.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 18:22

Saphos you keep coming back to the point that EA exemptions protect women under the law, but they DON'T because institutions are not enacting them properly, because of pressure from TRAs. That is why we have the safeguarding catastrophe of XY adults being able to share accommodation with teenage girls in Girl Guides overnight trips-XY adults accessing womens changing rooms in Centre Parcs-XY adults competing in womens sports & XY adults being locked up in womens prisons to name but a few problems. The existence of a GRC creates more problems than it solves.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 18:40

happydappy2 I completely agree. Institutions need to understand them and apply them properly. This isn't happening enough.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 18:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 18:46

So, in that case, why not repeal the GRA which is a very bad law? No one can give an example of how it benefits anyone? (Now same sex marriage is legal.)

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 18:56

Saphos I'm really struggling to understand how a GRC helps a trans person-other than allowing XY adults to legally enter spaces set aside for women-what am I missing?

Datun · 31/01/2020 19:00

Also part of me is inclined to think 'so what?' if an AGP individual is in love with the idea of feeling like a woman. As long as it's a personal feeling and not affecting other women then it's harmless.

Eh? Men who fetishise women, in a subjugation/degradation fetish, is not harmless. It's perpetuating the concept that women's humiliation is a turn on.

Other people, men, women and children, who affirm or validate that the person is a woman is an unwitting participant. How can you see that as harmless?

Having a GRC means that the person is legally female. There is literally no way to exclude them as the law stands, despite what is says. What are you supposed to do?

I'm a woman.

No you're not.

Yes I am, here is my birth certificate.

That can't be right, because you look like a...you've got a...you're obviously a...um

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 19:30

Saphos or anyone.....how does a GRC benefit an adult XY person, other than giving them access to spaces set aside for women (& by default children)?

I'm sure someone will be along to tell me soon....

Fieldofgreycorn · 31/01/2020 19:35

So what?

So if the law is the same law or ‘lie’ as it was in 2004, that people can legally change sex, what is it that has escaped, mutated, bred, multiplied?

Fieldofgreycorn · 31/01/2020 19:48

Unless of course, your position is that noone should condemn preposterous lies if they serve your own agenda?

Condemn what you like. I was trying to ascertain what it was that had escaped, mutated, bred, multiplied exponentially

A lie is an inanimate noun isn’t it. It can’t litterally escape, mutate, breed. Not on its own. Perhaps I was struck by the vividness of your prose.

people can read and comprehend perfectly well what I wrote.

Yes.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 19:51

Field how does a GRC benefit an adult XY person, other than giving them access to spaces set aside for women (& by default children)?

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 20:09

happydappy2 as I mentioned earlier in the thread the GRC is just a piece of paper. Nobody asks to see it in reality. But what it means to that trans individual is comparable to an adoptive or non birth parent being on their child's birth certificate. An affirmative legal fiction.

Men who fetishise women, in a subjugation/degradation fetish, is not harmless. It's perpetuating the concept that women's humiliation is a turn on.

I can see how an AGP person fetishising themselves as a woman is ... distasteful for some people. But I believe people's private fantasies are harmless if they don't directly affect anyone else. It's also impossible to control private fantasies - removing the GRC won't make these fantasies magically disappear.

I appreciate many trans widows have been affected by the their partners coming out later in life. I believe if those trans women had felt able to be themselves and get a GRC earlier in life then their 'fetish' wouldn't feel so deviant. More importantly they would not have entered into heterosexual marriages in the first place and misled their partners.

If an AGP's thoughts lead to actions that actually negatively affect women then of course that is serious. As I said at the start of the thread, there would need to be some very concrete examples of this happening frequently to form a persuasive argument to repeal the GRA.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 20:11

Just a piece of paper-but its not is it-its something XY adults can claim legal status of being a woman with

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 20:14

happydappy2 and if the EA exemptions are strengthened and correctly applied then it becomes effectively meaningless. That's what I am hoping for.

SisterWendyBuckett · 31/01/2020 20:14

Birth certificates are a copy of a record of a birth. I take great issue with re-writing history, not just the person granted a GRC, but the mother's history is re-written too.

Exactly.

I conceived and gave birth to a daughter. This is my lived history, my lived experience, my truth. My body.

It's difficult enough having to deal with this from your own child, without the state reinforcing an absolute lie.