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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 22:03

Oh grow up, there are 5000 GRCs issued to transwomen, possibly 1 to a trans man, women make up 50% of the population.....repealing the GRA would release tension, not inflate it. The opinions on FWR reflect reality.

jellyfrizz · 31/01/2020 22:07

If something easier to access and more inclusive than a GRC were introduced, like a gender identity certificate, then the GRA could be replaced rather than repealed.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/01/2020 22:09

I think that very few people actually support the trans activist platform. The perspective that most do is an illusion created by a small number of shouty people in social media, and in the mainstream media. Whenever disagreement is allowed it's fairly overwhelming.

(This appears to be why the Guardian often no longer allows comments on trans related articles, and some other outlets do the same. They know if comments are allowed the result will be a wall of "this is nonsense".)

OldCrone · 31/01/2020 22:23

It's easy to forget that the opinions on FWR are very far removed from public opinion.

What makes you think that? Most people just haven't given it any thought. They are barely aware that the GRA exists and think 'trans rights' just means letting trans people catch up so that they can have the same rights as everyone else, and that we should be kind to people who have a distressing mental health condition.

I'd be surprised if most people are on board with denying the existence of biological sex or pretending that people can change sex.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/01/2020 22:39

And that also is true. At one point majority opinion was in favor of all kinds of things that we now regard as abhorrent.

I'm not going to follow a strategy that I think is ill advised just because someone else tells me to.

SHAR0N · 31/01/2020 22:40

Sorry late to this @GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

But what about adoption? Isn't that another type of legal fiction albeit one with a very important purpose? Maybe the birth certificate should be left unchanged with an adoption certificate to show who the new legal parents are

That’s exactly what does happen in the UK.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 01/02/2020 02:10

No politician would dare back it. No big organisation would back it. Mainstream media would likely support trans people over women, painting the evil feminists as the bad guys trying to oppress the poor trans women. It's easy to forget that the opinions on FWR are very far removed from public opinion.

If we are assuming that public opinion should inform the law (your preference not mine), I wonder if politicians and tra would be happy to put it to a public referendum?

At least then we could then have an open and honest debate about the process of obtaining a grc, what rights it gives and doesn't give, and how it conflicts with the EA.

It's treated a bit like a dirty little secret at the moment. I doubt that many people really know what's going on.

NonnyMouse1337 · 01/02/2020 08:20

To all those wondering 'why was there no opposition before?' .....

It's always worth remembering the sort of strategies the trans movement have been using over the years to get what they want.
Their own report indicates what strategies have been 'successful' and should be used by future advocacy groups to secure their goals. Some of the more interesting ones are:

5. Get ahead of the government agenda and the media story

In many of the NGO advocacy campaigns that we studied, there were clear benefits where NGOs managed to get ahead of the government and publish progressive legislative proposal before the government had time to develop their own. NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda and the ultimate
proposal than if they intervene after the government has already started to develop its own proposal.
Where NGOs fail to intervene early, the ultimate gender recognition legislation may be far less progressive than activists would like.

This lesson applies equally to the media. There is a real risk that where advocates fail to intervene early, sensitizing the media and the public to trans rights in general and legal gender recognition in particular, persistent negative and pernicious narratives about the trans rights agenda may take hold in the public imagination which will negatively influence the legislative process and the prospects for success.

7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform

In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of
protection
, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.

8. Avoid excessive press coverage and exposure

Another technique which has been used to great effect is the limitation of press coverage and exposure. In certain countries, like the UK, information on legal gender recognition reforms has been misinterpreted in the mainstream media, and opposition has arisen as a result. The effects of this can be dangerous: two out
of five transgender people experience hate crime each year in the UK, with young people the least likely to report incidents to the police.37 One in four trans people (26 per cent) directly experience transphobic
abuse online each month.38 The UK Home Office have reported that hate crime in general has risen by 48 per cent between 2014 and 2017, with the number of recorded hate crimes and incidents based on sexual orientation rising by 70 percent over the same period.

Against this background, many believe that public campaigning has been detrimental to progress, as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise.
In Ireland, activists have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue. Similarly, in Norway, campaigners developed strong ties with youth politicians, who then presented to the senior members of their parties on the changes that were needed.
This technique was effective at persuading more senior politicians, as the changes were being suggested from within their own party rather than an external organisation. We also saw this technique in Denmark.

11. Be wary of compromise

A final lesson from the campaigns we studied, is that activists should be wary of compromise; compromise can be a double-edged sword. For example, in Ireland, compromise on legal gender recognition for young trans persons was critical to getting the legislation passed, but it might take years to revise the legislation to render it more favourable to trans youth.

www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

I have never come across an honest and well-intentioned social campaign that seeks to establish rights for any demographic by avoiding public scrutiny. Rights for women, gays, minorities etc always developed by engaging with the public and building support and goodwill from those who might be skeptical or opposed to what is being campaigned for.
I do not trust anything that comes out of the trans lobby's mouth.

We should be wary of compromise too.

Aesopfable · 01/02/2020 08:34

It's easy to forget that the opinions on FWR are very far removed from public opinion.

If that were true then why are TRAs doing everything in their power to suppress any discussion of it/keep it out if the media? Why would it be necessary to threaten venues, lie to everyone about the law, no-platform speakers?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 01/02/2020 08:41

If our viewpoint was so unusual "no debate" would never have been needed in the first place.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 01/02/2020 08:50

The opinions on FWR may be considerably better informed on the detail, but in broad terms, I think you'll find a huge majority of people do not accept TWAW, are not in favour of mixed sex toilets etc and do not want the majority of creeping changes introduced by the GRA The more the issue is openly discussed, I expect the more the general public will realise the implications.

As Nonnymouse notes above, this agenda was hustled in under cover, with a lot of diversion and obfuscation. Hence the desire to get it legislated on as quickly as possible, before everyone realises what exactly it entails.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 01/02/2020 08:55

And the odd insistence that once a law exists it can never, ever be changed.

Mockers2020Vision · 01/02/2020 09:00

This debate exists only in the Anglosphere where the distinction between 'sex' (Indo-European, Sexus, to divide) and 'gender' (Indo-European, Gehnus, divergence from the same root) is possible.

happydappy2 · 01/02/2020 09:19

This is why the madness of gender ideology needs full exposure-no more sneaking in laws that affect women, without consulting WITH women. Stonewall have majorly backed the wrong horse here & it"ll be painful for them to acknowledge that-but the safeguarding implications are simply too big to ignore. Anyone with eyes can see that Pride has morphed into something very different than just celebrating same sex love-its all about kink & fetish & whatever men want.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 09:24

This debate exists only in the Anglosphere

The linguistic one, perhaps, but the idea that men can be women if they say they are has spread much further.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 09:55

Anyone with eyes can see that Pride has morphed into something very different than just celebrating same sex love-its all about kink & fetish & whatever men want.

This absolute rubbish really winds me up! Anyone who has actually been to Pride and has eyes will know it is very much about same sex love.

The only 'kink and fetish' parade participants I know of are the Dykes on bikes and I can't see how they are anything to do with what men want.

Datun · 01/02/2020 10:16

When a man who thinks there's nothing wrong with having sex with nine-year-olds is asked to actually lead pride, you know they've lost the plot.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 10:45

When a man who thinks there's nothing wrong with having sex with nine-year-olds is asked to actually lead pride, you know they've lost the plot.

What's this all about then? Haven't heard about that. Sounds extremely dodgy.

I don't think a couple of tame photos and a request by an obscure Pride in Wales for participants not to wear kink or fetish really shows Pride is getting overrun by kinks and fetishes.

I've seen people dressed up similarly in my local Waitrose but I don't think Waitrose is getting overrun by kinks and and fetishes either.

Anyone who actually attends Pride knows what it's all about.

Datun · 01/02/2020 11:17

It was Peter Tatchel, Sapphos - asked to lead Birmingham pride.

so do you think that the pride parades are children friendly?

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 11:23

Anyone who actually attends Pride knows what it's all about.

Apparently so. It's all about the fetish and it's not for kids.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3619623-pup-play-fans-dance-for-children-at-pride?pg=1#prettyPhoto

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID
SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 11:32

Oh Peter Tatchel. That's a whole other thread but I'm in agreement that he's vile. He shouldn't be leading Pride for sure.

Yes I do think the Pride Parades are children friendly. I have participated in the Parade with my own DC and they loved every minute.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 11:37

OldCrone say my DC did see someone dress up in a gimp mask or a 'furry' at Pride. They aren't going to understand it's a sexual fetish, as far as they're concerned it's just someone in a silly costume.

We go to Pride every year and have never seen / noticed these people, but if we did I very much doubt by DC would be scarred by it.

Datun · 01/02/2020 11:53

It's not about your children being scarred. It's about advertising a celebration as being children friendly, when it is populated by people public displaying an adult sexual kink.

Jeez.

So how far would you go. Men walking around in nappies? Is that okay to take your children to?