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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 20:15

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Datun · 31/01/2020 20:29

A lie is an inanimate noun isn’t it. It can’t litterally escape, mutate, breed. Not on its own. Perhaps I was struck by the vividness of your prose.

No, not literally, field 🤣

Datun · 31/01/2020 20:30

sapphos, do you actually read what people write? How they respond to your posts? Because you repeat things that have already been addressed.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 20:36

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Goosefoot · 31/01/2020 20:41

And they're not trying to say they are the biological parents.

There are certainly people who want to be able to have same sex parents both on the birth certificate as biological parents, and see arguments against that as being bioessentialist or homophobic. So there are parallels there in how they conceptualise that. And FWIW, the central conservative argument about SSM has always been that there is a relevant physiological difference between same and opposite sex couples, and the law saying there isn't doesn't change that. The disagreement is really over the purpose of marriage in society, which they would say is related to sexual reproduction and not about validating people's feelings.

But when any of these are reduced to being discussed as rights questions, important elements are often not brought out, it really narrows the focus.

Thelnebriati · 31/01/2020 20:49

SapphosRock Fri 31-Jan-20 20:09:21

happydappy2 as I mentioned earlier in the thread the GRC is just a piece of paper. Nobody asks to see it in reality.

Are you ignorant of the law, or being disingenuous? Its usually illegal to ask to see a GRC.
The GRC itself may be 'just a piece of paper' but it enables a person to change the sex recorded on their birth certificate; and that is the piece of paper that most organisations ask to see.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/01/2020 20:50

I'm happy to see DonkeySkin back! On the third gender option idea, the irony is that the reason it won't work in the UK is that because levels of sexism are lower and gender roles less strict than in the societies in which that's evolved we have both male and female people who want to be seen as the opposite sex, whereas most societies with a third gender option offer it only for males, because the level of flexibility offered to females unhappy with their societal role is "none". A third gender that encompasses both male and female people isn't going to make sense to anyone, which does indeed underline how illogical the whole thing is in the first place, but also means it would be impossible to deploy.

I think the GRA should have been repealed as soon as marriage was opened up to allow anyone who wants to get married to do so. As is it functions as a bait and switch (which may well have been the intention of some of the people behind it, but certainly wasn't what Parliament agreed to) and creates conflicts with other people's rights, so it needs to go.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 21:08

Another reason for not campaigning to repeal the GRA is it feeds right into the accusations from TRAs.

We are constantly hearing that trans rights are under attack, that GC feminists are trying to deny the existence of trans people.

Repealing the GRA is doing exactly that - denying trans people their existing right to exist as the opposite gender. They will become the oppressed victims.

As a PP pointed out it would also attract the loose cannons who are at the extreme far right of GC feminism, alienating the vast majority of moderate feminists.

OldCrone · 31/01/2020 21:08

The EA exemptions recognise that transsexual women are not in fact female by highlighting the instances where it is lawful to treat trans women differently.

People should not be afraid of the law and apply these exemptions, particularly when it comes to vulnerable women and women's sport.

SapphosRock The law says that the exemptions can be applied, but in practice this is not possible for someone who has a GRC and therefore has a new birth certificate stating that they are the opposite sex to that which they were born.

If you believe that a women's refuge, for example, could exclude a transwoman who has a GRC making them legally recognised as female (with female on their birth certificate), can you explain exactly how, and on what grounds, they could exclude them?

If a man can become legally female, how can single-sex exemptions work? How do you distinguish between a woman and a transwoman with a GRC?

The GRA is incompatible with single-sex exemptions under the EA.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 21:14

If you believe that a women's refuge, for example, could exclude a transwoman who has a GRC making them legally recognised as female (with female on their birth certificate), can you explain exactly how, and on what grounds, they could exclude them?

A women's refuge is a good example as protecting vulnerable women from harm is a higher priority than validating a trans woman's identity - therefore a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

In these circumstances it would be lawful for the women's refuge to exclude trans women. See the bit that says:

Circumstances when being treated differently due to gender reassignment is lawful

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 21:15

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TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/01/2020 21:17

Indeed. Spartacus. I'm going to campaign for what i think should happen, not what someone who'd prefer a more timid approach thinks we can achieve.

As an aside, it's never a great idea to open a negotiation by asking for the absolute minimum you're prepared to accept. If you do this you will be bargained down into accepting less than that minimum.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 21:19

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SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 21:24

SpartacusAutisticus I'm not struggling. I know the exemptions aren't being applied in practice but they really should be.

At least they exist. I believe Stonewall were trying to remove them at some point and got very cagey about it all.

Surely campaigning to strengthen and uphold the exemptions is more feasible and realistic that trying to repeal the GRA?

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 21:25

Saphos I'm really struggling to understand how a GRC helps a trans person-other than allowing XY adults to legally enter spaces set aside for women-what am I missing?

For the 2nd time of asking, or is it 3rd now? Care to answer?

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 21:27

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TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/01/2020 21:29

The fact that the attempt by Stonewall to have the Equality Act amended seems to have failed, or at least been kicked into the long grass, is a perfect example of why you campaign for what you actually want and not the minimum you think you can get. If the response from feminists had been "well, I don't really love this but let's work out a compromise" then those changes may already have been made.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 21:31

happydappy2 why don't you ask a trans person? I'm not trans so not qualified to answer.

Datun · 31/01/2020 21:33

In these circumstances it would be lawful for the women's refuge to exclude trans women. See the bit that says:

It's not just that people aren't invoking then exemptions tho. It's that with a GRC it's virtually possible, because how do you identify them?

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 21:35

saphos then why are you arguing that women just accept the status quo & don’t try & repeal the GRA? Safeguarding is on all our shoulders as adults.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 21:36

On the third gender option idea, the irony is that the reason it won't work in the UK is that because levels of sexism are lower and gender roles less strict

That is a valid point, however, I don't see how else the politicians would clean up the mess they introduced while trying to save face. Repealing the GRA and admitting they got it wrong is a pretty big deal in the first place. Smile

I think it is possible to work out some sort of legal arrangement if the political will is there. However, the details are for the other side to figure out.

From our side, the message of repeal the GRA should be sufficient.
Options like a third (or even fourth) gender show there are workarounds that don't involve building laws around falsehoods.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/01/2020 21:38

Indeed, how they fix this is not really the responsibility of feminists. I'm happy to offer opinions, but ultimately our role is to say "here are a list of things that are categorically unacceptable to us". This makes sexist people fret and wring their hands because the idea of women going "this is what I need, how you make it happen is not my problem" goes against everything they've internalized about the role of women as nurturing and self sacrificing.

OldCrone · 31/01/2020 21:40

I'm not struggling. I know the exemptions aren't being applied in practice but they really should be.

You seem to be struggling to understand that they are impossible to apply in practice. If a person turns up with a birth certificate saying female, on what grounds can you exclude them?

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 21:45

My opinion is the backlash and ramifications from a campaign to repeal the GRA would be negative all round and just lead to increased anger and tensions.

No politician would dare back it. No big organisation would back it. Mainstream media would likely support trans people over women, painting the evil feminists as the bad guys trying to oppress the poor trans women. It's easy to forget that the opinions on FWR are very far removed from public opinion.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 22:03

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