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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 15:17

Either everyone's sex is recognised, so that female people can be measured against make people, demand recognition and equality with them on accurate, fair terms.
Or sex is a forbidden characteristic, and those wishing to have reality recognised are punished.

Actual females will continue to exist and constitute the biologically female half of humanity. The question is whether it is inhumane to pretend there is no importance to this biological existence of half of humanity.

Great post Barracker and this is why I think it's important that feminists argue from first principles rather than protesting the most extreme effects or asking for 'a balancing of rights'.

I know that the people saying repeal is unrealistic are assessing the current situation in good faith, but I think we need to think long term, and internationally. This fight will be decades long and it is worldwide. (Jess Phillips boasted to Pink News that the GRA had been the model for similar laws around the world.) If we don't get to the root of what is happening and why, we've already lost.

And also we need to think about the value of having a consistent and clear message with which to challenge the many, many contradictions in the genderist position. For instance, arguing that the 'gender care' medical industry is unethical and harmful, but also saying that we want to keep 'a robust and medical gatekeeping process in place' is illogical and confusing.

IMO pretending that our main issue is a lack of medical gatekeeping also makes feminists come across as a bit dishonest. Surely our disagreement with the trans movement is not ultimately to do with overreach into self ID, but with the premises of ‘gender identity’ itself – and surely it is better if we are honest and upfront about that.

I’m not saying this to criticise the heroic efforts of Nic Williams or other women who have succeeded, at great personal expense and risk, in raising the profile of this issue in the UK. Their protests against the proposed law change have forced the media to finally start covering the issue. As a short-term strategy to halt the momentum of the trans movement steamrolling women's rights, 'No to self ID' made sense.

But in the long term, it makes no sense, because it is full of contradictions and inconsistencies, and does not get to the root of the problem. It forces feminists into arguing for positions we do not hold (gender docs know best!) and stops us from demanding real solutions that would actually work for women and society more broadly.

I also fear that the focus on self ID is reflective not just of realpolitik, but of an unconscious reflex on the part of women to always appear 'nice' and conciliatory by asking for the least that we think we can get. As Barracker put it, 'women are unaccustomed to taking the stance that is less concessionary'. This is something we really need to get over, especially in the face of opponents as fanatical and unyielding as trans activists.

OP posts:
happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 15:17

So meet with our MPs to broach the subject. Spread the word to anyone who’ll listen.....

Datun · 31/01/2020 15:17

Nice try, field. But she's talking about a law.

I law that was designed to be a workaround for same-sex marriage. And which is now being used to back up telling children in school they are committing a crime if they recognise sex.

Datun · 31/01/2020 15:17

*A law

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 15:18

How to repeal a law:

Very simple.

You pass a new law, or an amendment, that says the old law is repealed.

Fieldofgreycorn · 31/01/2020 15:31

But she's talking about a law.

The law is exactly the same law as it was in 2004.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 15:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jellyfrizz · 31/01/2020 15:35

I can also imagine public sympathy lying with trans people in this scenario rather than with women. It immediately turns trans people into the victims.

Victims? How so? Wouldn't it be a good thing to be be able to easily record your identity without having to prove anything to anyone?

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 15:35

Laws are amended and repealed all the time.

This one was a bad law in 2004 and is a bad law now. It must be repealed.

jellyfrizz · 31/01/2020 15:41

Not sure how lumping all trans people together as one third gender could work as it would encompass MTF, FTM, and non binary.

Perhaps they could be 'gender identity' certificates so that people could put whatever they feel best described themselves?

Ikeasucks · 31/01/2020 15:45

Totally agree OP, the GRA already operates on self id and creates a system of confusion, intimidation and a total conflict of rights between transfolk and female folk. I want to see this ridiculous, confusing, unworkable Act repealed

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 15:57

As with Section 28, whether the GRA is considered a 'bad law' is very subjective.

Concrete examples of how the application of the law is directly causing harm would be needed if any repeal argument is to be taken seriously.

Datun · 31/01/2020 16:01

The law is exactly the same law as it was in 2004.

So what?

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 16:03

On the suggestion of a third (or fourth) sex category for trans-identified individuals, like Aesop, I can’t see how this would work.

Some countries do have formal recognition of ‘third gender’ males, but this is part of a long-standing cultural tradition – one that doesn’t exist in the West. Furthermore, ‘third genderism’ (as distinct from the Western phenomenon of transgenderism) is rooted in strict sex roles and sanctions against homosexuality; it’s a mechanism for gay males to exist peacefully in societies that would otherwise reject them. I’m not sure why we’d want to import this tradition.

If trans-identified people want to campaign for ‘transwoman’ and ‘transman’ as sex categories (or as a kind of asterisk or add-on to their identity documents?), let them, but I don’t think feminists would get very far suggesting it – trans activists would say we are ‘othering’ and ‘dehumanising’ them by pushing trans-identified people into a legal and ontological cul-de-sac, and they wouldn’t be entirely wrong, and that’s before we get to debates about what sort of sex-based rights these other ‘sexes’ should have.

I don’t think feminists should waste our time arguing for the creation of novel sex categories (aside from the fact that it contradicts our position that sex is material). Why can’t we just advocate for laws that protect against discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation?

OP posts:
Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 16:04

You have been given examples sapphos but the most basic and concrete one is it undermines the meaning of 'woman' and 'sex' and therefore undermines everything that relies on these categories: all the laws that protect women and help us overcome sexism, and all separate health needs.

Datun · 31/01/2020 16:04

It took 15 years of campaigning to change the law about rape within marriage.

Fifteen years of government committees, MPs talking, being lobbied, the public talking, minutes of meetings being written, letters exchanged, and endless, endless discussions between people - all of whom absolutely agreed that rape should be legal.

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 16:06

The provisions of Section 28 never resulted in a single investigation. It was there to intimidate and it suceeded mightily.

Barracker · 31/01/2020 16:06

Oh, jolly good try, fieldofgreycorn.

Unfortunately for you, I explicitly referenced a legally sanctioned preposterous lie.
A lie.
I'm sure you'd like to contort my condemnation of the evolution of a legal LIE into some kind of dreadful prejudice against PEOPLE, but unfortunately for you people can read and comprehend perfectly well what I wrote.

It says more about you, and your bad faith that you've deliberately misreprentated what was said.

Unless of course, your position is that noone should condemn preposterous lies if they serve your own agenda?

jellyfrizz · 31/01/2020 16:09

If trans-identified people want to campaign for ‘transwoman’ and ‘transman’ as sex categories (or as a kind of asterisk or add-on to their identity documents?), let them..

Wouldn't the point be that they would be gender rather than sex categories? Which would respect people's identities but decouple sex and gender in law.

BlindYeoSees · 31/01/2020 16:10

Haven't seen your name for a while, DonkeySkin! I always liked your posts. I totally agree with you.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 16:11

I’ve emailed my MP to request a meeting regarding this, she’s met me before and has concerns herself. Ultimately what good does having a GRC do a transexual person? I think it’s cruel to set up a fake narrative for them.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 16:22

Ultimately what good does having a GRC do a transexual person? I think it’s cruel to set up a fake narrative for them.

Ultimately what good does having a marriage certificate do to a gay couple?

Ultimately what good does it do to have adoptive parents listed on a birth certificate rather than biological parents?

Ultimately what good does it do to have the partner of a lesbian mother listed as 'parent' on a birth certificate?

All of these are 'fake narratives' and mean a lot of the people they belong to.

jellyfrizz · 31/01/2020 16:47

All of these are 'fake narratives' and mean a lot of the people they belong to.

Why is a marriage certificate for a gay couple a 'fake narrative'?

Datun · 31/01/2020 16:47

None of those things is fake. They do have a marriage, they are parenting. Even if you accept they're not biological parents, they are doing the parenting. And they're not trying to say they are the biological parents.

Saying an adult human male is also an adult human female is saying something that is not true, can never be true, and there is no way of interpreting it as having any truth, at all.

Datun · 31/01/2020 16:58

The other thing is, of course, that there is a certain narrative that says the reason why there were only 5000 certificates issued, is because gender dysphoria amongst men is very rare. And consequently the reason why there are now so many transwomen, is because of the absorption of transvestism under the umbrella, by stonewall.

sapphos do you think it's right to officially recognise a fetish, by being able to have a certificate endorsing it?