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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 01/02/2020 12:02

They aren't going to understand it's a sexual fetish, as far as they're concerned it's just someone in a silly costume.

So you'd be happy to see your children in this picture?

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID
SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:11

So how far would you go. Men walking around in nappies? Is that okay to take your children to?

Erm there's no men walking around in nappies at Pride so it's a mute point but say there was... I still don't think my DC would register or care.

Their grandmother has Alzheimer's and has to wear adult incontinence pants so if they thought anything of it (which they wouldn't) they would think the men needed to wear them. Or just think a silly man decided to dress up as a baby.

Fetishes are the least of my concerns at Pride. There are, however, plenty of drunk, rowdy people. Plenty of people on drugs. People vomiting and urinating in the streets. These things make it not so child friendly but then it is an adult festival and it's mainly straight people who come along and use it as an excuse for a big piss up that are responsible for all that.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:17

No OldCrone I wouldn't let my children sit with a group of adults they don't know. I don't think you will find any parent that would. It doesn't mean children don't have a place at Pride - there are kids tents especially for them.

Datun · 01/02/2020 12:17

Fetishes are the least of my concerns at Pride.

Good to know.

When people are openly displaying an adult sexual kink, which is often linked to paedophilia, at a parade which is advertised as being children friendly, it's good to know that you're more concerned about the straight people who are making a mess.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:23

What would you do if you were me Datun ?

A lesbian mum with two kids who both enjoy going to Pride as they see lots of other kids with lesbian mums. See men holding hands with men and women holding hands with women and know there's lots of other families like us.

Should we stay away from an event that is designed for us just in case my DC spot a man dressed up as a dog?

Surely by staying away it will cause it to be less lesbian and family-friendly?

It's our Pride too.

Mockers2020Vision · 01/02/2020 12:23

Erm there's no men walking around in nappies at Pride

I did a simple Google search and I'm spoilt for choice.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 12:26

I did a simple Google search and I'm spoilt for choice.

Thank you for doing that Mockers, so that I didn't have to.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:33

Google 'fetish Glastonbury' and you'll be spoilt for choice with pictures too.

I guess kids shouldn't be allowed to go to Glastonbury either...

Mockers2020Vision · 01/02/2020 12:37

Most people know about whataboutery, but fewer will be aware of the rhetorical technique of nevermindaboutery, as exemplified above: Raise a point. See it countered. Dismiss the relevance of the point you raised in the first place. And repeat, etc ad inf.

littlbrowndog · 01/02/2020 12:39

True that mockers

Cascade220 · 01/02/2020 12:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 13:00

A lesbian mum with two kids who both enjoy going to Pride as they see lots of other kids with lesbian mums. See men holding hands with men and women holding hands with women and know there's lots of other families like us.

This is a quote from 'Mr Leather Wales' in the article about an 'obscure Pride in Wales' which I linked to earlier.

"fetish is often an intrinsic quality of LGBT+ folks identities. Asking people to avoid these things goes against the history and tradition of Pride."

Do you agree with this? Do you think it helps people to be accepting of lesbian and gay couples with children?

Michelleoftheresistance · 01/02/2020 13:10

The "butI'mfinewithit" whataboutery again.

Look. If you love anal sex with your partner, whoopee for you. Crack on. Have a lovely time.

Does that mean that because you've never had a bad experience with it, no one else has ever had a bad experience?

Does that mean that anyone who doesn't like anal is wrong/silly?

Does that mean pressure on all girls/women to do it is ok because in your experience it's lovely?

It's a bit the same with much of this. It's lovely YOUR personal experience of Pride/Fetish/Getting Naked In Changing Rooms With Strange Men/ Smear Tests from Males is a field of sunflowers and joy. Other humans may have had different experiences, which are equally valid. Theory of mind. Give it a try.

testing987654321 · 01/02/2020 13:11

Anyway, I think we were discussing whether we should be pushing for repeal of the GRA.

The argument has been made that an opening negotiating position should ask for loads and then compromise.

The other method is to ask for little which is more easily conceded then keep pushing for more.

I think the OP is right that we need to push back against the GRA as it stands because it has led to self id by stealth.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 13:35

Yes, we should get back to the actual topic of discussion on this thread which is about repeal of the GRA. I agree that it no longer serves any useful purpose. If same sex marriage and pension equality had been brought in in 2004, the GRA would never have been passed. Now that we have those, it is no longer of any use whatsoever.

The GRA was passed because of the sexist and homophobic attitudes of parliament at the time. It would have been better to deal with the sexism and homophobia and bin the GRA. That's where it belongs now.

Datun · 01/02/2020 13:38

What you do sapphos is up to you, I was countering this point that you made:

The only 'kink and fetish' parade participants I know of are the Dykes on bikes and I can't see how they are anything to do with what men want.

Datun · 01/02/2020 13:39

Yes, sorry crone. Getting sidetracked there.

jellyfrizz · 01/02/2020 13:41

The problem with the GRA is that it legally changes sex, not gender. Which is why non-binary, gender fluid etc people are left out.

I can see how calling for a repeal of the GRA would be seen as trying to 'roll back' trans rights.

I think replacing it would be a better call. I believe the main problem is that sex has been conflated with gender. Sex needs to be decoupled from gender in law.

An easily obtainable 'gender identity' certificate could replace the GRC. This could then include all those trans people who are currently left out of having their identity validated with the added bonus of decoupling sex from gender in law.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 13:45

Glad someone mentioned theory of mind.

How do you think transgender people will feel and react to a campaign to repeal the GRA? Effectively being stripped of rights you've held since 2004. It's such a blatantly aggressive move that surely people can understand it's not going to go down well.

The recent GRA consultation document clearly stated there would be no question of repealing the law. So there's that as well.

jellyfrizz · 01/02/2020 13:49

What do you think of replacing the GRA with something more inclusive Sapphos?

testing987654321 · 01/02/2020 13:55

If we completely separate sex and gender, as I think we should, then there is no point changing a birth certificate as that records a person's sex.

I guess if people want to pick a gender they could have a certificate to say what they have chosen. This could be whatever they wanted.

To my mind, all publicly separate services should use sex as on birth certificate. I guess the gender certificate could be used by organisation who thinks gender is relevant to them.

No-one should be discriminated against at work or housing etc based on their gender.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 13:55

Getting sidetracked there.

Me too. I'd still like SapphosRock to explain what 'fetish' has to do with Dykes on Bikes, who AFAIK are just a bunch of lesbians who ride motorcycles.

But that's probably for another thread. Back to the GRA.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 13:56

Personally I think your gender recognition certificate is a good idea. It's inconceivable that this would be introduced without consultation with trans people though and I imagine it would be hard to get them on board, particularly as it's a GC campaign.

It's no secret that GC feminists are seen as the enemy and not to be trusted.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 13:57

Sorry meant gender identity certificate

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 13:58

Effectively being stripped of rights you've held since 2004.

We've already discussed on this thread that people who have gained extra rights using the GRA may be allowed to keep them. Those who do not already have a GRC would not be 'stripped' of any rights, they just wouldn't be allowed to gain the extra privileges which are currently granted under the GRA.

Trans people already have all the same rights as everyone else.

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