Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
Barracker · 31/01/2020 12:11

You don't need a GRC to do that anyway.

You don't need a certificate to burgle my house, but if I catch you and eject you the law will support me, not you, and you may discover you have broken certain laws with your chosen actions.

You don't need a certificate to drive without a seatbelt, but if you are caught, you may be prosecuted.

The certificate is merely a veiled threat.
It exists to make it harder for other people to assert their own rights, which would normally, and lawfully, include the exclusion of the holder. It is a piece of paper designed to have a chilling effect upon others asserting their rights.
The rights can still be asserted though. The more this happens, the less powerful the certificate becomes.

crsacre · 31/01/2020 12:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

snowblight · 31/01/2020 12:21

It exists to make it harder for other people to assert their own rights, which would normally, and lawfully, include the exclusion of the holder.

Totally inaccurate nonsense. Trans people already have the right to use the toilets, changing rooms they want to. A GRC doesn't change that. In fact the Equality Act makes it clear that in certain circumstances where a trans person should be excluded, holding a GRC makes no difference.

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 12:25

And it's inconceivable that one could remove GRC from people who had already obtained it legally.

It's not a question of ripping a piece of paper from someone's hand. It would be gender reassignment itself that would no longer be recognised by the law.

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 12:26

Tran's people do NOT have registered right to choose which changing rooms etc to use. Unless they have a GRC the EA states they must not be discriminated against compared to those of the same sex (so for transwomen, men). They do not have the right to enter spaces or services set aside for those of the opposite sex.

snowblight I suggest you read the actual law nor Stonewall''s distortion.

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 12:27

Random 'registered' appeared in there for some reason

ThePurported · 31/01/2020 12:28

That's a fair point crsacre, but it's a bad law and getting rid of it is better in the long term. The whole premise of the GRA is unhelpful, as it turns 'transitioning' into a goal-oriented - yet utterly meaningless - process and reinforces the false idea that people can change sex.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 12:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Barracker · 31/01/2020 12:38

It would not be feasible for those 'tens of thousands' you predict to be approved. The GR panel simply would not process that volume.

I don't think there would be a rush on that scale anyway. Despite the enormous protests and lobbying to 'make it easier' the curious fact remains that not many people currently apply. The cost is lower than the cost of passport applications for a couple of people. There's no great lobby protesting passport costs.
The GRC approval rate is above 90%.
If you want it, you get it. Hardly anyone is refused.
Begs the question; if it's not that expensive, if you can already get approved without surgery/hormones etc, if being a sex offender is no barrier, if there are really no practical barriers to getting one, the approval rate is very high, and IF the demand is SO high, as is claimed, why are only a handful of people bothering to apply each year?

Does not compute.

Goosefoot · 31/01/2020 12:58

It's bad legislation being used in a way that is totally separate from what it was intended for. It comes out of an approach that is looking mainly to plaster over other problems rather than address them directly.

That being said, I do think it could be difficult to change the momentum and narrative in the public. Not impossible but it would require some savvy and careful work. And it could easily be undermined by loose cannons.

I do think that at the moment, there is a lot of acceptance of the idea of these kinds of legal fictions, particularly around registering births and same sex couples. I think to be consistent that would also have to be looked at the same way and that could create a lot of bad press unless handled very carefully.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 13:34

So how does one campaign to get the law changed? Lobby MPs, start a petition? With social media being what it is, it shouldn’t take too long for this to gain traction.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 13:41

It would not be feasible for those 'tens of thousands' you predict to be approved. The GR panel simply would not process that volume.

So the plan is for feminists to campaign to repeal the GRA, it is successful, there is a rush from trans people to obtain a GRC before the GRA is repealed but the GR panel refuses to process the extra GRC applications before the repeal deadline.

How do you predict transgender people and the TRAs would react to this turn of events? I can't imagine it would be with meek acceptance.

I can also imagine public sympathy lying with trans people in this scenario rather than with women. It immediately turns trans people into the victims.

Much better to work with the existing laws to ensure women's rights to privacy, dignity and safety are being properly upheld.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 14:08

It's really not that hard to obtain a GRC. It can't be THAT traumatic to have your brith certificate show your natal sex if a trans person hasn't bothered to get one so far - and many don't, seeing as only a few thousand have been issued so far.

If there was a rush of applications before the deadline, the backlog can be worked through. Assuming the current criteria stays in place, most applications would be accepted anyway.

Repealing of GRA would work only if there was an alternative implemented in its place - hence my suggestion of a legal third gender.
Only those over 18 can apply for a GRC. So for example, as of Date X, anyone over 18 can continue to apply for a GRC to change their BC. After Date X, you can apply for a GRC (or whatever you want to call the new mechanism) but it will legally change your gender to the new trans category.
Anyone who has already submitted their application under the old system can resubmit to the new system free of charge. It will be quicker and easier because no criteria is needed to be trans, other than only males can be classed as trans women and only females can be classed as trans men.

Countries do this all the time with regards to visa categories, naturalisation and citizenship paperwork. Phasing something out and switching over to a new system is perfectly feasible.

The key is that no new GRCs will be issued to enable people to change their birth certificate. Which means over time, we will return to being able to have accurate and robust sex based data again i.e. you won't have males in female statistics etc.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 14:15

Not sure how lumping all trans people together as one third gender could work as it would encompass MTF, FTM, and non binary.

If it was to work then there would need to be a third, fourth and fifth gender.

I do think some non binary folk would be up for the idea, but not sure about the others.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 14:23

According to Stonewall, all these types are classed as trans anyway. So I don't see what the problem is.

Non-binary is a bunch of crap anyway, and even enbies know this. No one is going to be listing 100 different genders or whatever tripe the BBC was spouting.
The non-binary brigade aren't happy with the current system anyway, what with them wanting to get rid of sex altogether.

If there is sufficient requirement for 3 further categories - trans woman, trans man, non-binary ... Well the trans lobby can argue amongst themselves and figure out a solution that doesn't impact on the rest of us. It's not our job to spoon feed them on how to sort out this mess of their own doing.

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 14:26

Nonny why does there need to be an alternative? Why can’t we just accept gender non-conformity. That some men feel more comfortable presenting as women even though they are and will remain men. Sex is the only relevant factor here; ‘gender’ is a shifting set of feelings related to society’s stereotypes and expectations. There is no reason to divide people by gender.

Goosefoot · 31/01/2020 14:33

I guess my question would be, what things would having a legal gender designation for trans give people access to? Presumably not sex based things, but I am struggling to think what might be relevant? I guess it might indicate what pronouns etc people should use?

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 14:35

Sophos its bizarre reading yr posts, almost telling women not to fight, to just meekly accept the status quo. Where's yr backbone? Where's yr fury at the madness of a law allowing males to obtain legal documents stating they are female? This is safeguarding loophole that must be closed. I'm genuinely surprised you are advising against even trying....we can all see that the existing laws are not working for women and children.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 14:39

Aesopfable because there are people who insist on a trans identity and as a country we made the big mistake of allowing it in the first place, which means any removal will be framed as a melodramatic assault on human rights and literal violence.

Asserting that people can change sex and allowing birth certificates to be changed is ludicrous and a step too far, hence why it should no longer be allowed. However, in any society you have to reach an uneasy compromise on certain issues to be able to move forward. No side gets 100% of what they want. Therefore having a separate legal gender for trans people removes any deadlock and political headaches that come with it. I'm a pragmatic person.

On a societal level, feminists and gender critical people can still challenge the sexist assumptions and stereotypes, and promote the message that it's ok for men to feel comfortable presenting as women.
Maybe in future there will not be any need for a trans category at all, but for now, this will stop the assault on women's rights which is the priority in my opinion.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 14:52

Goosefoot just thinking off the top of my head -
it might help to enable trans-only spaces such as shelters for trans people who have experienced sexual assault, rape, domestic violence. Such spaces might benefit from only hiring trans staff who might be better able to understand the challenges.

Can provision dedicated health clinics, especially if medical and surgical treatments are involved - conventional medical practitioners have zero experience of the experimental nature of the treatments that some trans people embark on.

It is useful on an international level I suppose - trans people can apply for asylum because they are a protected category; although you will need strict legislation around this.

Better monitoring of trans population in society - for example, if trans people are consistently unemployed or in lower economic strata, it could indicate maybe prejudices during recruitment?

Stuff like that. I'm not sure there will be lots of benefit. But it helps separate it from sex based rights and protections.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 14:56

happydappy2 where was all the outrage in 2004 when the law was passed?

The reality is the GRA hasn't really affected women until the proposed self ID amendments came to light and the TRAs got on board.

The law itself isn't the problem and serves a purpose for genuine transsexuals it's the prospect of it being abused via 'self ID' that's the problem. That's why if the EA exemptions were correctly applied and upheld it would protect everybody.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 15:02

I disagree. When the law passed in 2004 women weren’t consulted-we didn’t know. We now do know thanks to brave women speaking out, that the vast majority of transwomen retain their penis. It is bad law to have an XY person, with a penis, legally classed as a woman. Now more people are aware of this situation it is glaringly open to abuse by predatory males-that is unacceptable.

stumbledin · 31/01/2020 15:04

Up thread someone asked how to repeal a law.

Well Section 28 was repealed.

And there would be an added resonance in using this as the template as all too often the Stonewall clones try and say gender critical feminists are like those who supported section 28.

Whereas the reality is that the GRA and more importantly the heavily funded thought policing that is going on, means that especially for women (and lesbians and gay men) the GRA is like section 28.

The GRA and the legitimacy it has given MRAs and those against women's sex based rights, are as anti women's human rights as section 28 was.

Also as a tactic, to put forward a position that takes current campaigning around the GRA as step further actually helps open up the issue.

The problem is, it means some of us, would have to step forward and be prepared to produce material, and even become public identified, to make people, especially politicians, think about what a bad law it is.

Basically we have a law that requires everyone from professionals to casual aquaintances lie. ie you cannot change your sex.

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 15:04

In 2004, the understanding was this was all about a vanishingly small number of post-surgery individuals who wished to get married and nothing else.

Fieldofgreycorn · 31/01/2020 15:15

escaped, mutated, bred, multiplied

Like grotesque rabid vermin? Amazing language. Have you worked in Equality and Diversity long Barracker?

Swipe left for the next trending thread