Trans women in womens toilet

[BeCoolYolanda]

I was out with friends tonight for a friends birthday. While in the queue for the toilet in the womens bathroom a transwomen came in. She was chatting to people in the queue and the lady in front of me asked if she were a man or a woman as she wasnt comfortable with a male being in the female toilets.

With that all hell all hell broke loose, the transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face. A lot of women in the queue also turned on the woman, saying how dare she ask that etc. The woman ended up locking herself in the toilet as she felt intimidated.

Eventually the bouncers were called and they came in to the toilet and dragged the woman who asked the question out forcefully by the arm. Should this be happening? All a women did was question if it was a male or female that was using a female space, maybe she could have worded it less bluntly but surely the sentiment is still the same.

CharleyParley, do you have an equally hard time understanding that homophobia is not literally to be scared of or disgusted by homosexual people?

Danger, CP said they would not regard someone’s action of a shouted deliberate misgender in the presence of the trans person as transphobic.

Read the post if you missed that part, though I did include it in the quote.

Danger, CP said they would not regard someone’s action of a shouted deliberate misgender in the presence of the trans person as transphobic.

Yes, because to do so would be to assume calling a male by the correct pronoun is a transphobic act under any and all circumstances. It isn't. As many trans people will tell you this can happen for a variety of reasons, few of them being motivated by transphobia. It can be an expression of transphobia, in my experience it's much more often people being insensitive (hence my calling someone who did that an insensitive arsehole).

On an interesting side note, I read a number of articles by different trans people explaining why attitudes like yours are far more damaging to trans people than being misgendered.

But if you're into policing people's speech, I guess not harming those you claim to protect is probably a secondary concern.

CharleyParley, do you have an equally hard time understanding that homophobia is not literally to be scared of or disgusted by homosexual people?

The definition of homophobia is dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people on the basis of their sexuality.

The definition of transphobia is dislike of or prejudice against people who identify as trans on the basis of their trans identity.

Now I used the words "not disgusted by" and "not scared of" to express pretty much the same thing. Of course, prejudice isn't just fear but also having generally poor opinions of someone's abilities, habits, character and motivations. But a) I expressed aspects of phobias to illustrate my points, not provide you with a dictionary definition (which I have done now) and b) I did ask for your definition. So let's have it.

It must be exhausting to constantly monitor other peoples words. It must be boring identifying offensive words, phrases or even punctuation and then reporting those offensive things.

It must be even more exhausting to try to stop people from seeing the truth and having their own thoughts because even if it is only in a persons head it causes offense.

This is an example of the minimising of misgendering that happens on a daily basis here.

She said it would be "unnecessarily hurtful" - what more do you want? Oh I forgot, total compliance, even just in unexpressed thoughts, with the tenets of gender identity ideology at all times.

I think you're meant to pretend that it literally kills people, like a bullet that shoots out of your mouth if you're rude, but only if you have a vagina.

I think your use of the word "pretend" there is actually literal violence, Kittens.

Terrifying situation! I wouldn't have been brave enough to ask but I suspect the lady expected the other women to side with her, and it's really shocking that they didn't.

My half brother, as a child, used to go around asking strangers if they had a penis or a vagina. I can imagine how that would go down now.

(Angry TRA drags small child to police station)

"This toddler hate crimed me!"

Ereshkiga, Agrona and Prodigal, I’m sure this is great fun for you, imagining all the awful things I haven’t said and don’t think, but it’s not on to imply that I have said or think any of those things.

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice. You think that’s fine, I don’t.

I know this board struggles with people having different views. You all projecting, making stuff up and attacking me for stuff I haven’t said and don’t think is typical, and really really tiresome.

I’m sure this is great fun for you, imagining all the awful things I haven’t said and don’t think

I believe psychologists refer to this as "projection".

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice.

I didn't defend it as a choice, I disagreed with your assertion than an act of public misgendering is always motivated by transphobia.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons why women don't say anything. It's not because women can't tell.

It's not transphobia to expect a female only space to actually be, a female only space, and to take some kind of action when you see that not only females are in that space.

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice

what you fail to see or acknowledge is that some people simply don't accept or recognise the whole concept of 'misgendering' - seeing as it belongs to a whole ideology they reject.

That is not to say, in terms of personal, one to one interaction, that those same people would always refuse to use 'correct' pronouns. I'm sure most of us are aware and sensitive enough to gauge a situation for ourselves, and make judgments and decisions accordingly.

What people will not do, however, is be compelled to speak in certain ways so as to as to confirm an ideology with which they are in disagreement.

I identify as a person who experiences extreme and genuine dysphoria upon finding male human beings in the women's toilets

In the same way as our rights are being removed now, trans rights will be taken away when they are no longer useful.

some people simply don't accept or recognise the whole concept of 'misgendering' that would include me (I'm a man if it matters) and quite a lot of the people I know.
Not that any of us will be chasing someone down the street calling them names. That would just be mean.

If introduced to a man by someone who said "This is Sally, She's visiting" I'd probably go along with it out of politeness, but don't expect me to go around reading tiny badges.

I'm shocked about the woman being dragged out because she didn't want to share a toilet with a man. What kind of man wants to make women feel like that in the first place.

I'm the same as you Last. And I'm not 100% comfortable with this as a biology believing woman because i don't think it's the truth.

Whilst I will not be mean to someone on purpose IRL I do not believe TWAW. I'm talking to DD 11 these days about what she is legally entitled to in school in terms of changing rooms, toilets and competitive opportunities. My sitting on the fence this way whilst encouraging her to not accept her boundaries being respected I realise is a big contradiction

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice

Look up the old phrase 'force me to the discourtesy'. It has a long history, for the same reason. One person within a social contract can put the other person in a situation where it is no longer reasonable to expect them to not speak a truth that may be something the hearer does not want to hear.

Other people have rights too. It is not the job of females to unconditionally protect and be kind to those with no intention of treating them with the same standards of care.

Agree Michelle.

I’ve noted your last post Michelle and shall probably have cause to use it in the future. I’m starting to open up discussions with women whom I meet in daily life because it’s frightening how many are still unaware of the ongoing erasure of our hard-won rights. You have a gift for explaining things clearly and succinctly. Thank you.

And let me just add that I am also not someone who recognises misgendering as a concept - human beings cannot change sex. Gender is a straitjacket of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes and I do not choose pronouns based on how well that straitjacket fits you or which one you wear.

I use the pronoun that corresponds to sex unless I am required to missex someone by social constraints or consideration.

As I made clear in my example.

What is obvious from this thread is that certain people are convinced that not believing in transgender ideology equals transphobia. Which is a totalitarian response to dissent.

On the anniversary of Orwell's death it is chilling to note that this is also Stonewall's official definition: refusing to accept someone's gender identity is transphobic.

(P.S. the full Stonewall definition of transphobia reads as follows: The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact they are trans, including denying their gender identity or refusing to accept it. I wonder if the poster who criticised my use of fear and disgust will also inform Stonewall that their definition is inadequate?)

“.... including denying their gender identity or refusing to accept it. “

You and others on this thread have explicitly said that you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic.

Yet you don’t consider it to be transphobic in yourself or others, to deny or refuse to accept gender identity for trans people in general, or for specific individuals.

You think it’s fine to misgender people, so long as they don’t catch you doing it, and even then you would consider it to merely be rude or insensitive, not transphobic.

That’s your position and that’s your choice, but you should know that to many other people, and in our legal system, your position is not supported, and your choice may well be criticised, and your behaviour or views categorised as transphobic.