Trans women in womens toilet

[BeCoolYolanda]

I was out with friends tonight for a friends birthday. While in the queue for the toilet in the womens bathroom a transwomen came in. She was chatting to people in the queue and the lady in front of me asked if she were a man or a woman as she wasnt comfortable with a male being in the female toilets.

With that all hell all hell broke loose, the transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face. A lot of women in the queue also turned on the woman, saying how dare she ask that etc. The woman ended up locking herself in the toilet as she felt intimidated.

Eventually the bouncers were called and they came in to the toilet and dragged the woman who asked the question out forcefully by the arm. Should this be happening? All a women did was question if it was a male or female that was using a female space, maybe she could have worded it less bluntly but surely the sentiment is still the same.

What's wrong with having one's views criticised?

you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic.

Yes, that's because the definition of transphobia is bloody ridiculous.

One of my best friends is a very committed Christian. I believe that she believes in the living Christ as her Saviour and daily friend. I respect her faith but don't believe the same, and she knows that. Is that 'phobic'?

One of my extended family is transgender. I believe that she now genuinely believes herself to be a boy. I don't. I care about her just as much as ever but I don't share this particular belief. Why is that 'phobic'?

Robust criticism of all views should be welcomed, I reckon.

Can someone please explain to me what ‘gender identity’ actually is?
I don’t see how it can be legislated for without a description, and I’ve not found an objective one yet.

You and others on this thread have explicitly said that you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic

It does in the world of transgender ideology......if you subscribe to it.

As someone mentioned earlier, the radical trans activists: the ones who seem aggressively intent on closing down discussion; the people who monitor and police the speech of others - are doing 'actually' dysphoric and fully transitioned transsexuals a grave disservice.

Never before have we had this clamouring for political correctness and compelled speech, and I think there are some in the trans community who believe this rather narcissistic and demanding tone is damaging the social contracts and agreements built up over time: founded on a position of negotiated trust. Not one of compulsion.

Below is an extract from a response to an article on AGP, which outlines how this aggressive policing is actually not only oppressive and totalitarian, but counter-productive too:

"The only real way for HSTS / androphilic MTFs to fight back against the colonisation of trans spaces, by aggressive autogynephiles/trans activists, is to call them out for what they are....... The best chance androphilic trans people have is actually in Asia where there are many HSTS trans women - but for the most part, they really don’t care about the political side of things, and just want to live their lives being accepted for who they are. When asked if they want to be treated as women, most of them will answer “no, I’m not a woman, I’m a ladyboy”. As problematic as some of us might find that term to be, it is literally how they themselves self-identity. Am I making this up? I’m sure that’s what the accusation will be (it usually is) , but the many trans women I’ve dated in Asia almost universally say the same thing. The problem is not wishing to be perceived as a woman, the problem is that looking like and acting like a woman is not allowed for men (which is what transwomen are) to do. The problem is not with womanhood, its with what we tell ourselves men are and are not allowed to be"

"Autogynephilia is absolutely real - I have it. I haven’t “transitioned” and won’t. I spent years trying to understand myself and wrestling with very palpable demons. Thank god for Blanchard, Bailey and particularly Lawrence for helping me to understand myself. It took far too long....... If anyone wants to understand more about this and the seriously narcisstic, delusional and bullying tactics of TIMs (trans identified males), I strongly recommend browsing r/itsafetish, r/gendercritical and observing the undeniably male entitlement on display when a TIM is triggered. they do NOT want you talking about them, because they’ve managed to hijack the - legitimate (androphilic) - trans movement"

your behaviour or views categorised as transphobic

That's ok, in my personal opinion. Several transsexuals have also been labelled as transphobic (oh the irony).

Trans Privilege Activists have turned something that should have been serious and meaningful into a silly playground insult. They have trivialised transphobia by insisting something like misgendering is sooooooooo awful and traumatic, that it makes a mockery of genuine transphobic behaviour such as aggressive threats or harassment etc that many trans people might encounter in their lives.

If a person's well-being and sense of worth is entirely dependent on everyone around them being forced to play along, including strangers, then they are going to struggle to get through life. It's not a healthy way to live in the long-term. Part of growing up is realising that people aren't always going to agree with you nor will everyone comply with your wishes; and you're not as important as you think you are that people will always remember ever little detail and preference of yours.

Retrofitted

I gather you missed the bit where I pointed out that Stonewall's definition is Orwellian?

Stonewall's definition is not the law btw, and it is not universally recognised either. The universally recognised definition (including by the courts across the UK) uses phrasing like this:

dislike of and prejudice against
as well as
dislike or fear of or hatred for

Disbelief is of course not included, because disbelief in an ideology cannot be used to characterise someone as phobic. To do so is, as I said before, totalitarian as well as undemocratic, extreme and oppressive.

"refuse to accept gender identity." there's no such thing.

There are some stereotypes which we were working on stamping out. You know "women wear dresses and heels, they cry a lot and take home economics" "men play football and wear trousers and study engineering" that kind of thing.

Those are having a revival because people are saying that liking football means you are a man and heels make you a woman.

The reality is sex which is unchanging or personality which is ever changing. Be free. Wear whatever you like and be the person you want to be.

Where have I heard something like that recently? :)

What kind of man wants to make women feel like that in the first place
The ones we are trying soo hard to keep out?

Hear hear LastTrainEast and despite all the claims to the contrary, there is no proof at all that gender identity exists.

You and others on this thread have explicitly said that you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic.

Really? I guess that's too bad then. Most people are transphobic by that definition.

It was the phrase ‘ identifying ’ that got your post deleted, I expect. I got a deletion for a similar phrase in a thread about women’s sports a few weeks ago.
I was quite cross because while the acronym it spells out is on the ‘offensive, banned’ list, the phrase isn’t. Well, apparently, since the rules were made, there have been some unpublicised changes!

How we are supposed to talk about the sports issues without referring to ‘male’ is beyond me.

Martini you can’t say ‘trans identifying man’ when describing male bodied people who identify as trans, as that’s one of the banned terms. Your post will probably be deleted because you’ve repeated the first post. Mumsnet banned the use of ‘cis’ as an ‘equaliser’. It’s a great big ole pile of confusion and no wonder the mods themselves get confused. 😁

Well thank you, that at least explains it even if it doesn't justify their action!

So what do I say instead? "The person who was born with a penis"? "Someone with a male body"? Or would plain old "The man" be acceptable when I'm referring to an adult person who was born with a penis, who has a male body and who is thus known as a man?!

You either have to lie and call the male bodied person who identifies as trans, a trans’woman’, she, her or call the male bodied person they/them. You must never ever speak the truth.

...you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic.

And your refusal to accept there is no gender identity (because it's regressive sexist stereotypes) is what phobic?

"You refuse to accept that this wafer is the body of Christ.
You are Catholicphobic."

Such nonsense.

Reality phobic. Also feminism phobic.

Although I like it I don't think OK Computer is the best album ever made. I'm Radioheadphobic!

I will change my mind on the existence on an innate sense of gender identity about the same time I change my mind on the exisitence of a soul.

These claims are matters of belief, not evidence.

There is no evidence that humans possess an innate sense of a gender identity that is distinct from knowledge of and comfort/discomfort with their sex.

There is no evidence that transwomen have the 'brains' or 'essence' of a woman, nor that transmen have the 'brains' or 'essence' of a man.

There is some suggestion that there could be issues around mapping the body ie a neurological issue - which again, has nothing to do with an innate gender identity.

You don't get to tell other people they must believe articles of your particular faith. You must be left alone to practice your faith, but you can't impose it on others, including by social coercion.

God, why are people so DUMB!

"You either have to lie and call the male bodied person who identifies as trans, a trans’woman’, she, her or call the male bodied person they/them. You must never ever speak the truth."

If only you were joking.
Okaaaay, so me referring to a man as any kind of woman is not going to happen. Not ever.

Nor will I be calling a man "she" or "her", or using "they" when I refer to a single individual whose sex is known to me. The best response I can give to any objectors is to tell them not to be so bloody ridiculous.

We can say "cunt" on here but not "he" when we're referring to a man. Crazy.

Is "it" on the list? Where do I find this list? I feel some eye-rolling coming on. 🙄

I only use female/male/person/child who identifies as trans.

That's partially because not everyone who identifies as trans actually identifies as a woman - there's trans femme, trans feminine, femme, non-binary femme, non-binary trans feminine, male, man, female and of course TW. And partially because this avoids confusing people as to which sex the person is that is being discussed. And also because while I do not believe anyone can transition to be the other sex, I do believe that people can identify as trans - this is about identity after all, and that is highly subjective.

I have traded brevity and convenience for clarity and accuracy that allows me to be true to what I believe. It felt a bit clunky at first, but now I've gotten used to it, it works for me.

Is "it" on the list? Where do I find this list? I feel some eye-rolling coming on

I’m not sure if ‘it’ is on the list but you would definitely get deleted for it as it goes against ‘respectful discussion’ or something. The rules are at the top of the FWR home pages.

Ok, let's go back to the transwoman queuing for the toilet.

I have a trans sibling. When we visit parents we use the same loo (at different times!) with no issues.

If my trans sibling queued up behind me in a public toilet not on. I have no fear of this person, but FGS, they transitioned at 55. Spent most of their life MALE. Give women some dignity and privacy, please. And those that are inclined can flame me all they wish I have to live this shit, I KNOW this person, so don't be telling me what I should feel and who I should shove over for.

I have said before that this is not a problem that women have to solve. Men have to widen the bandwidth of maleness.

Like JKR said: be who you want to be, dress how you want to dress... but also embrace the fact that you are born male, or female, and respect that

Men have to widen the bandwidth of maleness

Yes...

But god forbid they should actually have to