Trans women in womens toilet

[BeCoolYolanda]

I was out with friends tonight for a friends birthday. While in the queue for the toilet in the womens bathroom a transwomen came in. She was chatting to people in the queue and the lady in front of me asked if she were a man or a woman as she wasnt comfortable with a male being in the female toilets.

With that all hell all hell broke loose, the transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face. A lot of women in the queue also turned on the woman, saying how dare she ask that etc. The woman ended up locking herself in the toilet as she felt intimidated.

Eventually the bouncers were called and they came in to the toilet and dragged the woman who asked the question out forcefully by the arm. Should this be happening? All a women did was question if it was a male or female that was using a female space, maybe she could have worded it less bluntly but surely the sentiment is still the same.

[JolyonsChickensAreBigots]

So all the lecturing on 'intersectionality' was just a lot of hot air wasn't it?

Sadly yes disabled, traumatised women and women of a faith or culture where they are unwilling to share a space with someone with a male body are excluded.

[Gronky]

Bet every single one of them could tell this was a male

It's quite possible that, if asked, they would say that chromosomes don't matter to them or hold a lower priority. What I meant by my initial response was that framing their responses as 'supporting males' doesn't seem to me to help with leading to a mutual understanding and, hopefully, acceptable compromise in the future.

[Justhadathought]

I imagine they view transwomen as women

No, they don't! Everyone, instinctively, knows the difference. What it is is a combination of fear of being subject to aggressive out -burst, or attack, oneself...and a desire to be 'nice' and not hurt anyone's feelings.Aligned with a mind that has been colonised and told what to think, and that tells them their instincts should be over-ridden.

Cultural gas lighting.

[Gronky]

No, they don't! Everyone, instinctively, knows the difference.

Sorry, I mean that they believe transwomen should be treated the same as genetic women, not that they are completely unable to visually distinguish.

[Justhadathought]

It's quite possible that, if asked, they would say that chromosomes don't matter to them

That might be the politically correct right think, yes.......

But the reality of male bodies in intimate female spaces goes beyond that.....it's nature's way.

[ThinEndoftheWedge]

*whore. Sex Offenders Act 2003 England
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life. *

Yep - man commits rape - key words in legislation suggesting that it is a male crime is ‘he’ ‘his’ ‘penis’.

Men rape men. Men rape women. Women don’t.

Most victims of sexual assault / rape are women and girls.

No one denies women can commit sexual assault.

Useful article for you to read - implying under reporting (still clear minority) of women committing sexual assault and using a man identifying as woman as their example.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/truth-female-sex-offenders/amp/

[Justhadathought]

Sorry, I mean that they believe transwomen should be treated the same as genetic women

Again, you are talking about imposed beliefs and ideas, rather than the felt and experienced reality of the situation. Everyone knows a man cannot and does not menstruate, require a cervical smear, carry a baby, give birth and so on......Men cannot 'be treated' the same as women, because they are not women.

Many women, and many young women may not remember, nor have experienced the times when women were not treated equally in law.......it wasn't that long ago........in the lives of most of us here.

[Dolorabelle]

transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face

Nice bit of masculine-socialised behaviour there.

[Justhadathought]

Nice bit of masculine-socialised behaviour there

Can you imagine a young trans man in the male toilets being confronted and reacting in that way? I certainly can't!

[ellabars]

I'm transsexual (other way round than this woman though)..

No,


That should definitely not be happening. The trans woman has a right to use the female toilet but being aggressive towards those uncomfortable is not okay. It's tricky because a man could walk in claiming to be a trans woman when he very clearly isn't.

Also, what the woman asked about if she was male or female isn't transphobia. Although it does hurt trans people's feelings, that doesn't give the trans person the moral right to get aggressive.

In an ideal situation, the trans woman could've used the toilet without it being a big deal to anyone. But in this case, the woman who got taken out really shouldn't have been. She didn't commit a crime and she has the right to use the toilet no more than the trans woman does.

But as I said, it's tricky.

[Gronky]

Again, you are talking about imposed beliefs and ideas, rather than the felt and experienced reality of the situation.

I think I understand what you mean but disagree that the latter is entirely objective. My aim wasn't to debate your beliefs but rather to suggest that understanding why other (biological) women might not have the same reaction to a transwoman in the ladies could be the first step to arriving at an agreeable outcome.

I was reading an interesting article on the alternative right a few days ago, it described the sociopolitical power of "weaponised" empathy in terms of aligning concerns and how it is much more effective in terms of producing movement of opinion than "weaponised" shame. In this context, the objectivity of your (not you specifically) beliefs is nearly meaningless if they are fundamentally at odds with the beliefs of the person you're trying to garner support from.

Many women, and many young women may not remember, nor have experienced the times when women were not treated equally in law

I work in a hard STEM field, I can definitely remember being pushed back from progressing with my studies (and early career) because it was something 'for boys' in the 70s and 80s.

[MrsWooster]

Had the transwomen said ‘I am trans, so biologically male. I identify with women... ” things would probably have ended very differently* but that would have involved the tw genuinely acting like a woman: asking for accommodation, not demanding it; and empathising, not dominating. The reaction of the other women was also the reaction to a man-self abnegation, instinctive accommodation.
The TW and the handmaidens’ reactions exemplifies everything about how transactivism has destroyed the long-standing detente whereby women accommodated ‘trutrans’.
(not that I think it should* have all been smoothed over and made nice-i would, a couple of years ago, have been fine with a transsexual using the toilets; now it’s simply not ok because TRAs have turned ‘kindness’ into the thin end of the wedge of a colonisation of every part of being a woman)

[cutietooties]

Tricky one, the woman had every right to ask the gender of the fellow toilet user! We are sooo afraid of being classed as transphobic, homophobic, racist, sectarian that we can't ask a question without being labelled! However, the trans woman had every right not to answer the question. Maybe suggest the venue has a unisex toilet? Means anyone can use it

[Thesuzle]

Would you feel able to go to the venue and support the “questioner”. Was she forcibly dragged from the loos, does she have bruises etc, I would be fully on her side and support an ABH charge against the bouncers

[CharlieParley]

Removing a woman for asking a reasonable question. Is this not assault by the security team? They have very limited powers to actually touch people in the venue, do they not?

In any case, to terrify someone to the point they look themselves in the toilet out of fear, meets the definition of common assault, so I do hope the woman reports this male to the police.

Thank you for reporting this incident to us, BeCoolYolanda.

This is one of the logical consequences of self-id, that we lose the right to question the presence of a male in a female-only space. It's completely irrelevant whether this was a man who believes himself to be trans or a man pretending to be trans to get access to a female-only space.

Like the woman who asked the question, I don't consent to sharing female-only spaces with any men, regardless of their external representation or internal identity. It's a reasonable objection, I am legally entitled to make. I hope you lodge a complaint with the venue, I would.

[ClappyFlappy]

Why are some women so keen to support males and not other women?

I wonder the same. Especially those who are members of the TWAW brigade and happy to see TW shit over the rights of actual women but still claim to be feminists.

[Orchidflower1]

I’d report to the licensing service that covers door staff, the venue and my local council.
That’s a vile way to treat a person who asked a valid question.

The thought that my dd could end up going out somewhere and sharing the loo with a 6 foot three biological male who identifies as “sharon” fills me with dread.

[NeedAnExpert]

Tricky one, the woman had every right to ask the gender of the fellow toilet user!

You mean sex. I.e. biology. Not dresses and make up. It’s a basic concept.

[LuisaRey]

Sorry, I mean that they believe transwomen should be treated the same as genetic women

I wonder if in the particular circumstances here the other women in the queue simply didn't see an issue as to why the question was asked?

The OP mentioned waiting in a queue and that the trans woman was chatting to the women in the queue. I'm assuming the venue was a club or a pub, as it had bouncers, and that it was busy enough that a queue had formed in the loos. What did the questioner think was going to happen in a queue with lots of other women around?

The trans woman was clearly in the wrong by responding aggressively as were the other women in the queue but I can understand why the other women might have thought what sort of a question/ thing to say is that? Who cares in the particular situation here of a busy toilet in a club, lots of people around, get in and pee and out again.

[AutumnRose1]

Luisa “ What did the questioner think was going to happen in a queue with lots of other women around?”

If she’s lucky enough to live in area that hasn't been affected much by all this, then she might well have expected other women to say “excuse me, please go use the men’s”.

[LuisaRey]

My question was meant from the point of view of what did the questioner think the trans woman was going to do.

There are posts about why are women prioritising men is that what the other women were doing or is it that they simply don't care/ don't see an issue?

I expect I'll get slated for saying this but I think my reaction would probably have been to mentally judge the trans woman's appearance (I judge every one's appearance, I'm very shallow) but if she wasn't doing anything else I doubt very much I'd care.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

we lose the right to question the presence of a male in a female-only space

Which means if you're not one of the females lucky enough to be fine over having no privacy from males, your only option is to walk away and surrender your access to any space at all .

No one will ever tell me: what is supposed to happen for these women? Because surely in a modern, civilised society, it isn't ok to just deprive a percentage of tax payers of access to public provision?

[Gronky]

LuisaRey excellent points, that's another way of looking at it.

[AutumnRose1]

Luisa "My question was meant from the point of view of what did the questioner think the trans woman was going to do."

I think she was hoping the trans woman would accept their presence was a problem and find an alternative place to pee.

[LuisaRey]

I think she was hoping the trans woman would accept their presence was a problem and find an alternative place to pee

Well it obviously wasn't a problem for the other women. You (general you) can slate them for "prioritising men" "being handmaidens" etc. etc. or as is, more likely they simply didn't see there was a problem.

You might I suppose put the case that the other women were too terrified by the presence of the trans woman to speak out- personally I don't think that was the case.

You (general you) are free to dismiss everything I've posted but it's my perspective on the situation described.