Trans women in womens toilet

[BeCoolYolanda]

I was out with friends tonight for a friends birthday. While in the queue for the toilet in the womens bathroom a transwomen came in. She was chatting to people in the queue and the lady in front of me asked if she were a man or a woman as she wasnt comfortable with a male being in the female toilets.

With that all hell all hell broke loose, the transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face. A lot of women in the queue also turned on the woman, saying how dare she ask that etc. The woman ended up locking herself in the toilet as she felt intimidated.

Eventually the bouncers were called and they came in to the toilet and dragged the woman who asked the question out forcefully by the arm. Should this be happening? All a women did was question if it was a male or female that was using a female space, maybe she could have worded it less bluntly but surely the sentiment is still the same.

So at this point I’m not going to continue the discussion as it’s going nowhere, you’re clearly defensive about any criticism of this site if it’s content and just looking for a fight rather than genuine debate

Debate involves engaging with actual 'live' content and then countering or rejecting it using logic and reason - giving examples along the way. All you have done is repeat accusations, and then when pressed you resort to further generalised accusations that stem from discussions about this forum on other platforms.

I think people should be aware that when you come onto this forum you need to know what you are talking about, and be prepared to put in some serious work and effort to actively engage. You can't simply 'refute' and resort to the repetition of mantras.Dialogue and the furthering of communication can only happen if you engage and listen.

Women are sick of not being listened to, and their feelings, experiences and, comfort and safety being seen as equally valid, and taken seriously.

Third spaces are the only way forward for everyone. I'd like to see convincing reasons why that is not the case?

I suspect that people who come onto MN to debate single issues assume that “Mumsnet” is full of under-educated mulch cows. Same old same old misogyny.

They then get a bit annoyed that actually, MN is one of the most feminist spaces on the internet, full of highly educated, literate knowledgeable women

Same old same old misogyny.

Milch cows. My phone resists speaking German, dammit

“Third spaces are the only way forward for everyone. I'd like to see convincing reasons why that is not the case?”

and this makes it clear you’re not listening to anything I post and are just spoiling for argument, it’s all well and good trying to lecture me on how a debate works, but why don’t you try actually reading what I’ve posted before replying, it’s pretty fundamental to a healthy debate, is it not? My original post on this thread, and in numerous ones afterwards I said additional unisex facilities are the solution, yet you’ve completed ignored that. You said on Mumsnet there is no ridiculing or deriding of trans people there is just objective discussion about trans issues, I provide evidence of a thread where the trans person in question is ridiculed, constantly misgendered and there is next to no objective discussion and you make excuses for it. So either trans people are not subject to ridicule and hatred for being trans (which is transphobia) on here or they are?

I grew up thinking the job of journalists in a free society was to make sure the truth was heard.”

Well err, yes it is. Not to push an ideological agenda. It's quite telling that you repeat that quote as an example of "rampant transphobia". Did you run out?

And with that I’m out

Really? Cos I'm sure this is the second time you've left.

And just by the by, the thread you're referring to is on AIBU, not FWR. I noticed at least one plopper with a dubious post.
If you look for my user name (I'm a fairly regular FWR poster), you'll see I refuted the the 'needs to shave' and 'lippy' comments.

If you want to report posts MN will remove if needed.
A bit like your last post calling us a banned MN term. If someone was minded to report your post it'd be deleted.

Oh what a giveaway.

That's a breach of the forum guidelines you've just used there, while making repeated accusations of things also banned under the forum guidelines and consistently moderated.

Many of us here are gay, and did that fighting for gay rights (actual rights. Not imagined hopes and wishes.) Think on why we who were there and have experienced real discrimination under law have a massive problem with what is happening with the TRA lobby. You might also like to consider that respect is a two way street.

It’s possible to have concerns and disagree aspects of movement, such as trans rights or black rights, and still respect the group of people that movement is for.

Umm no one here has concerns or disagrees with any aspects of 'black rights' - I think that's just you. Makes you sound not at all tolerant so probably best you do stop posting.

It's not evidence of transphobia to correctly sex a person when talking about them, whether here on a discussion forum or in an offline conversation where that person is not present.

And if someone is looking for, say a chair and Rebecca, who is male but identifies as trans, knows where the chairs are, then I am not going to point at Rebecca and shout "ask him" across the hall. That would be unnecessarily hurtful.

I still do not think someone who did that was transphobic (just an insensitive arsehole) because it isn't transphobic not to espouse a belief that humans can change sex.

Just as I am not Christianophobic when I don't join in the Lord's prayer at a funeral I attend. I am an atheist, I believe neither in deities nor sexed souls that reside in opposite-sex bodies. I feel compassion for those diagnosed with body dysmorphia disorders, but I am under no obligation whatsoever to agree with a sufferer of this condition that their body is wrong. Neither do I have to play along with the claim that it is, especially not on a discussion forum where we outline why doing so is harmful to a protected group I belong to.

And there it is. It never takes long for the mask to slip

and realise that the kind of language you’re using or justifying may be acceptable on here, however, I highly doubt you would be doing so outside of this website, in the real world where you’re not anonymous.

Have been talking about the immutability of sex and the needs of women and girls in plain language for two years now. With pretty much everyone I meet. And have discovered that outside of trans activist circles, pretty much everyone I meet also agrees with me.

Which leads me to respectfully suggest that it's not us living in a bubble.

the kind of language you’re using or justifying may be acceptable on here, however, I highly doubt you would be doing so outside of this website, in the real world where you’re not anonymous

Hmm. 'The kind of language' you mean is calling a male person 'he' or a female person 'she', is that right?

Actually, in talking to my children about their trans friends, I tend to hedge my bets with 'he or she'.

When discussing the trans child in our family, I will use their preferred pronoun if they are around, or if talking to their parent. I use their new name rather than either pronoun much of the time. But some of the older members of the family have found it bewildering and distressing to have their beloved grandchild referred to as a different name and sex, so I use birth pronouns with them.

For adult male transitioners whose families I know, I'll be guided by the family. Not going to call a child's father 'she' or 'mum' if that distresses the child, no.

I really wish that honesty all round was the preferred option. What is wrong with aiming for a world where a child can say 'Hi, this is my dad Emily, he's a transwoman but he still plays Pokemon with me'?

How flouncy is that Aries? Will you be back a third time to insult the many intelligent feminists here, plenty of whom are gay, sigh, just so that you can make another dramatic exit?

Intelligent debate is more than welcome here but throwing around insults when we don’t all do/think what you tell us isn’t going to get you anywhere is it? Why not sit quietly and consider mustering some actual facts, not opinions, and join in the debate properly?

With the way drag queens seem to be everywhere, the questioner may have wondered if it was a bloke in drag rather than a trans woman.
I like to think I would have stepped in on her behalf but amongst a group of possibly drunk antagonists lead by an aggressive bloke, I'm not so sure unfortunately.

I said additional unisex facilities are the solution, yet you’ve completed ignored that

I haven't ignored that. It is perfectly clear that unisex facilities are not the answer Have you not read anything on this forum at all? If you had you will have read, time and time again, very detailed, very clearly expressed reasons why they are not the answer.

Women are genrally happy with their toilet 'arrangements' as they are ( other than there being too few in many cases). It is trans people who are unhappy. It is therefore their responsibility to campaign for the sort of provision that they would be happy with.

You said on Mumsnet there is no ridiculing or deriding of trans people there is just objective discussion about trans issues

i didn't use the word 'objective'. It is impossible to be objective about such a thing. You either believe in trans ideology or you don't. I don't!

That's not to say that I don't acknowledge that some people struggle with their identity, or with feelings of wanting to escape their sex, or any other number of pressing feelings that people may have in relation to gender and expression of self. Of course, I do!
And everyone should have the same civil rights.

This is not about that, though. This is about women's spaces, services and sports. It is impossible to change sex now matter how you feel. The reason we have single sex provisions in the first place is an acknowledgement of this.

realise that the kind of language you’re using or justifying may be acceptable on here, however, I highly doubt you would be doing so outside of this website, in the real world where you’re not anonymous

The truth is that in the "real world" I talk about this at length to anyone and anyone who'll listen. In public toilets; in changing rooms; to staff at stores; in the check-out at Tesco......and do you know what.......most people haven't a clue about what is going on, and when they do they agree with my concerns. Especially when it comes to children......

safety” and “dignity” being used an excuse

An excuse. Really you think my nieces rape is an excuse? You think all women who have been harmed by the opposite sex use an excuse?
Way to minimise what a lot of women suffer.

constantly misgendering them is transphobic
New users unaware of the rules might possibly misegender people. Those posts are quickly removed and the user pointed to threads to educate them.
Longer term posters like me, tie ourselves in funky knots so as to not misgender people. Hth

CharleyParley above said *And if someone is looking for, say a chair and Rebecca, who is male but identifies as trans, knows where the chairs are, then I am not going to point at Rebecca and shout "ask him" across the hall. That would be unnecessarily hurtful.

I still do not think someone who did that was transphobic (just an insensitive arsehole) because it isn't transphobic not to espouse a belief that humans can change sex.*

This is an example of the minimising of misgendering that happens on a daily basis here. Posters here are clear that they will play along with TGs enough to not get deleted or banned, but that’s as far as it goes.

That regular posters don’t consider this sort of posting transphobic in tone and intent is made perfectly clear. That does not in any way mean that other people will see it that way.

Being able to accurately assess someone's sex in a split second is not a crime. It's an ability that has kept human beings alive for millennia. It is not transphobic to have that ability, it's just a human thing. Everyone has it to a greater or lesser degree.

Give me a definition of transphobia please in line with all other accepted definitions of phobias.

It is not and cannot be a phobia for someone like me who is not scared of nor disgusted by people identifying as trans, who uses preferred pronouns in the presence of a trans person so as not to upset them, to disbelieve in transgender ideology and to use pronouns for males and females correctly when talking outwith the presence of people who identify as trans.

The above statement makes no disparaging remarks about any persons who identify as trans, it does not deny them any rights others have. It simply reflects what I believe in - humans are sexually dimorphic, sex is immutable and no man can ever become a woman and vice versa.

I do not believe that the straitjacket of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes (aka "gender") which society tries to force us into is one we are born with. There is no such thing as an innate knowledge of or adherence to sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes.

Now you are free to believe that innocent babies are born with these straitjackets already in place, that is your right, of course, and you are free to believe that humans can change sex, I won't stop you.

I simply don't agree with you.

Calling that transphobic does a disservice to the many people who identify as trans who are facing transphobia when they are denied housing, or jobs or equal opportunities or when they are harassed for being different.

Lastly, I grew up in a totalitarian state. The views you espouse here are ones I am intimately familiar with. Freedom of thought and expression are taken for granted in the UK. This is how they are lost. By activists declaring legal, factual and objective views hateful and phobic.

This is an example of the minimising of misgendering that happens on a daily basis here

The example you quoted was a made up trans person to show what that poster wouldn't do. So it's not misgendering.
Is this another goalpost move? Already words have lost all meaning, now the goalposts keep shifting to keep us on our toes.
It's not misgendering if I meet a person who is female but is in fact two spirit. If I call them girl/woman then how is that wrong. I mean generally I call people by the name they give me but I actually dont know what one would call a two spirit person.
Is there a definition somewhere. Add pansexual and neutrois and demi boy and travesti n-b and aliagender.
And if there is some written down definition please share, also share how we tell who is what gender just by looking.
Thanks