Trans women in womens toilet

[BeCoolYolanda]

I was out with friends tonight for a friends birthday. While in the queue for the toilet in the womens bathroom a transwomen came in. She was chatting to people in the queue and the lady in front of me asked if she were a man or a woman as she wasnt comfortable with a male being in the female toilets.

With that all hell all hell broke loose, the transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face. A lot of women in the queue also turned on the woman, saying how dare she ask that etc. The woman ended up locking herself in the toilet as she felt intimidated.

Eventually the bouncers were called and they came in to the toilet and dragged the woman who asked the question out forcefully by the arm. Should this be happening? All a women did was question if it was a male or female that was using a female space, maybe she could have worded it less bluntly but surely the sentiment is still the same.

[Dolorabelle]

General comment, justhadathought giving some background to the history of feminist activism around lavatories in public spaces (or outside the home).

[Justhadathought]

General comment, justhadathought giving some background to the history of feminist activism around lavatories in public spaces (or outside the home)

O.K! Thanks!

[TreestumpsAndTrampolines]

I, like many women I think (and assuming I was desperate for a wee and couldn't wait, would have kept my head) down, gone and done my wee, then just never returned to the place (and warned other women about it later). Pretty much how I deal with poor service everywhere when I don't have someone else to defend and have alternatives.

Unless I thought physical violence was about to happen - as in this case, I would have found a way to hang around that toilet if that poor woman was actually having to shut herself in a cubicle for protection. I have offered to act as a witness before in similar situations, made sure that the person was OK etc.

How that woman was treated was unacceptable.

[ScrimshawTheSecond]

If you use a female toilet knowing that you may be making women uncomfortable, frightened, perhaps triggering PTSD symptoms etc, but choose to do so anyway, what does that mean?

(Statistically many, many women will have experienced sexual assault at the hands of a man, so this is far from an unlikely scenario).

Most women will not speak up. Because they're scared to. Using women's single sex spaces is coercive, potentially threatening, and unethical.

It's bullying, basically.

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Regina silence isn't acceptance. This with bells on.

[T0tallyFuckedUpFamily]

If you use a female toilet knowing that you may be making women uncomfortable, frightened, perhaps triggering PTSD symptoms etc, but choose to do so anyway, what does that mean?

It means you’re an immoral individual who is more worried about ‘looking’ kind and inclusive, while actually excluding the truly oppressed members of society, ie: women who don’t want to/are frightened to share female spaces with male bodied people. They don’t count because the mighty penis rules.

[Tubbytwo]

Justhadathought,

Amongst other things, you've stated about me that -

"My feeling is that you are being rather disingenuous and not very straightforward....or else you live a reclusive life away from the lights of the big city; and maybe don't own a TV? Maybe Mumsnet is your only place of social exchange?"

Meanwhile, back in the real world, I am here for intelligent and respectful debate on feminism and, in this particular case, whether male-bodied people should be allowed in female lavatories. I am finding your multiple posts addressed to me difficult to reply to because I can't see them all and replying in a similar piecemeal fashion to yours is far too time consuming.

Please would you stop your ad hominen attacks on me? So far you have called me disingenuous, not straightforward, a recluse, someone who does not own a television and also appear to be claiming that I have no friends and that Mumsnet is my 'only place of social exchange'. Don't you think that is all incredibly rude?

I don't recognise myself in your derogatory descriptions and have been on Mumsnet all of a week which disproves your last insult pretty throughly! In the light of the foregoing I don't think there's much point continuing to debate with each other is there? I haven't felt the need to insult you because, as I said, I am here for intelligent respectful debate with like-minded feminists. You obviously have a completely different agenda so let's agree to move on and ignore each other if you don't like my point of view. Thanks.

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Tubby please do stick around! This place will drive you barmy at times but save your sanity more often

[Tubbytwo]

Thanks spaceships 😊 I’m loving the fact that we are actually allowed to debate feminist issues here without being ‘cancelled’ or otherwise made to sit down and shut up!

[DodoPatrol]

If you use a female toilet knowing that you may be making women uncomfortable, frightened, perhaps triggering PTSD symptoms etc, but choose to do so anyway, what does that mean?

The thing is, though, many men have no clue about the proportion of women who are somewhere on the sliding scale of wary/anxious/frightened/traumatised by male assault. My own DH was chump enough to say that he thought I must be exaggerating the numbers, as 'no one he knew' had mentioned ever being sexually assaulted.

There was a perfectly pleasant-sounding transwoman on here a while back who had happily used the women's pool at Hampstead because a couple of friends had urged that 'nobody would mind', and, you know what, nobody had objected out loud, so they were clearly right and it was fine.

Clueless.

Credit where it's due, though, this person did sound taken aback and shocked at the thought that the presence of a male person might have upset anyone (they'd only seen it in terms of 'Will the women make me uncomfortable?').

[CharlieParley]

Hi Tubbytwo, do stay. I quite enjoyed reading your comments.

On your disagreement, it seems to me much more a case of crossed wires at first. I understood what Justhadathought said quite differently from you and if wires are crossed, it's not unusual to then get a little (or a lot) riled up with each other, especially between strangers on a message board.

[Kit19]

@dodopatrol so so true. Men dont get that a. women are socialised to be nice b. we're especially socialised to be nice to men c. men are much bigger as a class than we are and innate self protection kicks in - generally we dont want to annoy people who are much larger than us and have the capacity to hurt us

[Justabaker]

@Tubbytwo - hang around. I came here a skeptic and was radicalised. In a week. Peak trans.

Here's my 'good news' or rather mildly amusing story. I was in the changing room at my central London gym before Christmas. It was about 10 am so empty except for me and the cleaner. I'm standing there with my boobs out drying off after a shower and a person wearing lady clothes walks in. Looking a little uncertain and doesn't make eye contact. I said 'are you lost?'. Response 'I'm looking for the ladies'. I said 'this is the mens. Women's changing is down the hall on the left'.
Off the person scuttled. Okay, it's a tiny victory. And then I went up to reception and checked their policy. Long conversation with receptionist who said '(more or less) 'I don't earn enough to deal with this nonsense - do you want want to talk to the manager?'. Indeed I did. Hand waving and 'inclusive' and until I quoted the legislation to the manager. Still no clarity on policy.

I've had four children and I'm happy to be naked around persons of both sexes. But I'm also Bolshie and I'm not going to put up with that nonsense if I can personally do something about it.

I'm not giving away the rights of any woman if I can help it.

[Justhadathought]

You obviously have a completely different agenda so let's agree to move on and ignore each other if you don't like my point of view. Thank

Thing is...I've no idea what your point is......You seem to have labouring the same point for several pages.....and not happy with anyone's response.....

Most of us here are against mixed sex/gender neutral toilet; the same for other single sex services and facilities.

i agree let's not attempt any further communication. It's not so much I have a "different agenda"......It's more that I simply cannot fathom yours.

[Justhadathought]

On your disagreement, it seems to me much more a case of crossed wires at first. I understood what Justhadathought said quite differently from you

I think you're right! My problem is that I simply am unsure of what the poster is trying to communicate.To me they seemed to be assuming disagreement from the start.....

[ScrimshawTheSecond]

many men have no clue about the proportion of women who are somewhere on the sliding scale of wary/anxious/frightened/traumatised by male assault.

Yes, I suppose that's why the 'me too' movement came as such a huge shock for so many men.

So, for anyone watching who is in doubt:

20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to 3.4 million female and 631,000 male victims

98% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by males.

This means that out of any five women you come across, at least one of them has experienced sexual assault. We'll not bother with domestic violence or sexual harrassment, but that would add to the number.

Many victims of sexual assault will have lasting effects from the experience, including trauma responses.

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/

[Tubbytwo]

You obviously have a completely different agenda so let's agree to move on and ignore each other if you don't like my point of view.

Thing is...I've no idea what your point is......You seem to have labouring the same point for several pages.....and not happy with anyone's response.....

Most of us here are against mixed sex/gender neutral toilet; the same for other single sex services and facilities.

i agree let's not attempt any further communication. It's not so much I have a "different agenda"......It's more that I simply cannot fathom yours

Woah! Yet more insults and made up 'facts' about me. If you can't figure out that I don't want male-bodied people in the ladies loos then I honestly don't know how to explain it to you any more clearly.

As for me 'not being happy with anyone's response', what are you even talking about? I am very happy with everyone's response except yours because you seem to have made it your job to attack me for a load of made up faults you perceive I have. Are you like this to anyone else or have I somehow riled you by joining the forum?

There's really is no need to add yet another post explaining to another forum user that you think you are right to insult me. We're not in a playground trying to gather a little gang of acolytes are we?

I think there is room for all women on this board (natal born ones that is) but you seem determined to make me leave. If the admins think I've done something to justify being banned I'll leave but until then please can I just post like everyone else without you following me round to point out that you don't like me?

[Justabadwife]

Before I start, I will say I have a trans wife (Male to female) with genuine dysphoria, not some bloke who dresses as sharon on a Saturday, but someone who lives as a woman 24 hours a day who has changed their name legally, has photo ID in their new name, and very rarely gets misgendered.
I feel like there should be some unisex toilets, DP cannot use the Male toilets, it causes untold distress, but obviously using the female toilets is a tricky one, it wouldn't bother me, but it would bother others, and people should feel safe in their space.
So we are kind of stuck.

[Tubbytwo]

Would your ‘trans wife’ accept a third space toilet?

[WombOfOnesOwn]

People who very firmly believe they're Napoleon should be given French palaces, I suppose.

[RuffleCrow]

Definitely write to them with the cut and pasted legislation @Gcoldtimer has provided op asking for the reason they are not complying with the law. You could also go to the police as a witness for what you saw them do to the woman. Ask them to investigate. Give them a copy of the legislation too as they're probably as ignorant after stonewall 'training' as everyone else.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

I would absolutely support and gladly join campaigns for unisex spaces in addition to male and female. I believe everyone has the right to privacy, dignity and to be in a space where they don't feel uncomfortable or unsafe.

Third spaces is the only rational way out of this that meets needs. However some activists have been very clear that they would not use third spaces even if provided and would still insist on entering female only spaces because of their need to have their identity recognised. They explain that the cost of distressing and excluding females a perfectly justifiable one to meet their own needs.

[Justabadwife]

@Tubbytwo I know there is a whole thing with trans activists (but dp isn't one of them) and not wanting unisex toilets, But what I'm thinking is probably different to them.
I'm thinking like a disabled toilet space, an individual lockable toilet. Not a room full of toilets that anyone could use with gaps either at the top and bottom of the door.