Trans women in womens toilet

[BeCoolYolanda]

I was out with friends tonight for a friends birthday. While in the queue for the toilet in the womens bathroom a transwomen came in. She was chatting to people in the queue and the lady in front of me asked if she were a man or a woman as she wasnt comfortable with a male being in the female toilets.

With that all hell all hell broke loose, the transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face. A lot of women in the queue also turned on the woman, saying how dare she ask that etc. The woman ended up locking herself in the toilet as she felt intimidated.

Eventually the bouncers were called and they came in to the toilet and dragged the woman who asked the question out forcefully by the arm. Should this be happening? All a women did was question if it was a male or female that was using a female space, maybe she could have worded it less bluntly but surely the sentiment is still the same.

Tubby the leading UK guru on this is the MP Layla Moran I believe, following her stating her skillz in this area in parliament.

Wow! I’m sure she has soooooo much skillz to pass on 🤪 Where do I enrol? 😂

by what kind of ostrich-brained convenience-based reasoning substitute for logic are you assuming that all the other women who didn't speak out were not afraid? fucks sake

Well this the response I half expected.

You (meaning gender critical you in general) are of course free to insult any one who wasn't or would not be bothered by an obvious trans woman being in the queue of a busy ladies loo with lots of other women.

Or , if you want people to be on your side you and listen to you (again general you) might occasionally as Autumn Rose did, listen to other views. You might get an inkling as to why non "gender critical" women are not particularly bothered by this particular situation.

Given the other women took the side of the trans woman it might just tend to suggest they were not afraid just because a trans woman was in the loo. They could have said nothing- they could have left.

So far as people who might scare me in a busy, night club loo- aggressive drunk people- whatever their presentation.

Given the other women took the side of the trans woman it might just tend to suggest they were not afraid just because a trans woman was in the loo. They could have said nothing- they could have left

Most of the time it is not about fear, but about the dignity of one's sex in intimate spaces. The reason we have single sex facilities in the first instance.

Also being in a crowded facility with lots of other women, is not the same as being a lone female in a facility with several males.

Would I send my granddaughter alone into a women's toilet facility that males were also permitted to enter. Of course I wouldn't.

The point isn’t whether the woman who questioned the trans woman was right or wrong in her political outlook. The point is that when she did query what she thought might be contravention of venue policy the trans woman reacted by getting aggressive. It’s not ok to react with aggression when someone asks a question that upsets you or doesn’t correspond with your political view. If this was a Muslim querying whether her meal was halal and someone reacted this way the police would have been called and they might have been charged with a hate crime. Yet when a female seeks to protect her own interests she’s thrown out.

You might get an inkling as to why non "gender critical" women are not particularly bothered by this particular situation.

Still delighted you're not bothered. And other women aren't bothered. But I notice you're still not mentioning the women who are bothered and can't use facilities in this particular situation. They don't pop out of reality. What would you like them to do?

They don't pop out of reality. What would you like them to do

the obvious solution is to have mixed sex toilets for those that want them or are perfectly happy using them, and also retain single sex facilities for those that don't. The onus should be on trans people and their allies to campaign for this provision, rather than moving in on the spaces that women have managed to secure for themselves.

We are often told that gender neutral/mixed sex is the norm in France - and yet this imag suggests that most women, in France, would actually prefer to queue to use the ladies, than use such a facility.

@LuisaRey I’m not gender critical. I dont want to share loos with men. I also know that some men dress as women (not the same as being a trans woman) so it’s not always possible to tell someone gender just by looking at the way they present themselves. I wouldn’t have spoken in this instance because I wouldn’t want to be in bed in a scene. Silence isn’t acceptance.

You see, I would

In the first instance I would not have made a huge scene out of it, but I would have said, fairly discreetly, " This is the ladies

And for another response, I would have walked away, gone to a different loo, or just left the place entirely.
Sometimes just discreetly saying anything could get you hurt.

Justhadathought

What do you think would have happened if, as you claim, you'd have "said, fairly discreetly, " This is the ladies.......""?

To whom would you have said it? How would you make your speech 'discreet'? What result would you have been hoping for? Do you think this would have made the transwoman meekly go into the gents' toilet? Do you think something else might have happened? Or would you just have made your comment sotto voce so that no-one actually heard it? If so, what would be the point of that?

Personally, I'd have been scared and walked away to find another loo, possibly in another venue altogether if the one in question only had 'mixed gender' facilities. I WOULD NOT have spoken up due to fear and intimidation. From what we are told happened that would have been the right decision if I didn't want to be shouted at by both the transwoman and several baying supporters and also get myself thrown out of the venue :(

And all this happened where people had drink taken, which makes it even more dangerous.

The bouncers should have just ensured that everyone went to the toilet designated for their sex.

And, I'm pretty sure that I would have been super woke when I was young and ignorance.

To whom would you have said it? How would you make your speech 'discreet'? What result would you have been hoping for

I would have said that to the obvious interloper in the ladies loo......
Discreet implies, to me, not shouting or swearing, but saying something in a normal, everyday tone....yet with intent. The intent would be to make clear that this is a women's space and that I'd like to protect and maintain that.

As someone suggested earlier, I'd also weigh up the 'situation' - and proceed accordingly, depending on my instinct.

Personally, I'd have been scared and walked away to find another loo, possibly in another venue altogether if the one in question only had 'mixed gender' facilities. I WOULD NOT have spoken up due to fear and intimidation

I'm a confident and fairly out-spoken person......that is not to say that everyone is, or can be......I'd also, therefore, see myself as saying that on your behalf.

@Justhadathought

I've just re-read the OP and nowhere does it suggest that the woman who challenged the transwoman shouted or swore. I am assuming she spoke as 'discreetly' as you say you would have done, had you been there. The end result was that she was intimidated, shouted at and dragged out by a bouncer. How would you have obtained a different result? I'm genuinely curious to know.

Regarding your 'weighing up' of the situation, I've asked before on this thread how you tell the difference between an autogynephile and a non autogynephile but the silence has been deafening. You obviously know the answer if you are able to 'weigh [it] up' so please for my sake (and for the sake of every other women who cannot see into the souls of others and check them for gender) tell me how to do it. Thank you :)

I can’t imagine there’s a clear definitive visual dividing line between HSTS and AGP (assuming those exist and are accurate). But in general, if they do exist, the tendency would likely be that an HSTS would dress in a similar way to women, so as to fit in, whereas someone for whom it was sexual would likely be wearing a hyper sexualised outfit.

Been on Twitter too long to ignore the obvious fact that some males get a sexual kick out of trying to reimagine themselves as “slutty girlies”.

Ok, thanks for the explanation AnyOldPrion 🙂 I think that might possibly demand a knowledge of fashion which is outside my orbit since clubbers (or whatever the current word is? I’m no longer young) seem to dress quite skimpily to my way of thinking.

Can I ask if a certain well known potter would be labelled in a particular way? Or a certain singer who recently declared themselves ‘non-binary’? I’m going to take a lot more convincing before believing that women can (or should have to!!!!) weigh up the trustworthiness of individual transwomen when they are in what the majority of us would clearly prefer to be single sex spaces. If we make an error or judgement would we be considered responsible for the possible consequences? I feel as though we’re entering ‘she was asking for it your honour’ territory here ...

Sorry, that should read an error of judgement!

I think that might possibly demand a knowledge of fashion which is outside my orbit since clubbers (or whatever the current word is? I’m no longer young) seem to dress quite skimpily to my way of thinking.

Having walked past a queue of young women entering some event or other in Leeds last summer, I did think something similar as I replied, but Twitter shows some quite extreme male visions of “womanhood” and there was a video on here recently about a transitioner about my age whose outfit left very little to the imagination, so “inappropriate” age might also be a factor.

Like you, I’m too old for clubbing, but it may still be possible, and also not all queues are in clubs, and the PP may have meant more generally.

We are often told that gender neutral/mixed sex is the norm in France

Not in my experience. Only tiny tabacs have one toilet, there are nearly always two.

The onus should be on trans people and their allies to campaign for this provision, rather than moving in on the spaces that women have managed to secure for themselves

I'll come on here boringly to say, once again (once more with feeling), that access to safe, private, and secure, public lavatories was an important campaign in the 19th century to enable women to enter into public space.

I'm not sure just how much women today realise how constrained "respectable" women were in the 19th century. The expectation was that a "respectable" woman would not leave her house on her own. And if she did, she was not respectable, with all the implications of that. For example, the Contagious Diseases Act enabled police in port towns (eg Plymouth, Southampton) to forcibly incarcerate women they suspected of being prostitutes and forcibly inspect them gynaecolgically for signs of STDs (look up the instruments they used. The point here is that almost any woman walking alone could be picked up by authorities in this way. So working-class women, walking to & fro their jobs were particularly at risk.

Because the "logic" was that any woman in public was - by reason of being in public without a man - therefore not "respectable."

So, that's an example of the legal punishments of women in public space.

I am old enough to remember that it was a regular puny excuse for not employing women in so-called "masculine" jobs (eg engineers, architects, doctors, university lecturers, manual labourers, carpenters - anything that paid well, really!) that there were not enough toilets. And no room to build new ones.

this is living memory and lived experience.

So don't dismiss women who object to the undiscussed slide into mixed-sex lavatories. Safe, private, secure facilities for women are essential.

Not having them has been used for the last couple of hundred years as a big reason why women should not participate in public life as workers, employees, and in leisure activities.

Regarding your 'weighing up' of the situation, I've asked before on this thread how you tell the difference between an autogynephile and a non autogynephile but the silence has been deafening

I live in a large city, in which it is common to come across people 'presenting' as the opposite sex in one way or other.You do develop a feeling and an instinct when you encounter situations on a regular basis. Obviously that is not scientific study - but an intuitive one. Also, some people do tend to be 'sensitive' to character, generally.

The thing is the 'trans umbrella' is so wide these days that even cross dressers come under it.

Have to say, I'm not quite sure what you are driving at? Or quite where you are coming from? Could you explain in simple terms? what is the crux of your issue? I'm imagining ( but not sure) that you also, don't think mixed sex/gender neutral toilets are the right way to go?

I think that might possibly demand a knowledge of fashion which is outside my orbit since clubbers (or whatever the current word is? I’m no longer young) seem to dress quite skimpily to my way of thinking

My feeling is that you are being rather disingenuous and not very straightforward....or else you live a reclusive life away from the lights of the big city; and maybe don't own a TV? Maybe Mumsnet is your only place of social exchange?

Regarding Grayson Perry, I recently read a memoir he'd written in which he talks about the development of his transvestitism, and what it means and symbolises for him. He talks about its nature as a sexualised fetish; but he knows he's male, and uses male facilities as one would expect. It's a good read: humorous, revealing, touching.

Nobody is expecting you to do your own filtering when in the Ladies loos...most here want to retain single sex spaces and services.....but some are simply saying that presented with the situation that started this thread, or with any similar situation, how they might deal with it themselves. Not sure what else you are expecting?

So don't dismiss women who object to the undiscussed slide into mixed-sex lavatories. Safe, private, secure facilities for women are essential

Who is dismissing anything? You've got the wrong poster.