Trans women in womens toilet

[BeCoolYolanda]

I was out with friends tonight for a friends birthday. While in the queue for the toilet in the womens bathroom a transwomen came in. She was chatting to people in the queue and the lady in front of me asked if she were a man or a woman as she wasnt comfortable with a male being in the female toilets.

With that all hell all hell broke loose, the transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face. A lot of women in the queue also turned on the woman, saying how dare she ask that etc. The woman ended up locking herself in the toilet as she felt intimidated.

Eventually the bouncers were called and they came in to the toilet and dragged the woman who asked the question out forcefully by the arm. Should this be happening? All a women did was question if it was a male or female that was using a female space, maybe she could have worded it less bluntly but surely the sentiment is still the same.

But once dp has surgery obviously then she will use the female toilets.

Quick reminder to everyone, including Justabadwife, that this is the kind of exchange the Misogynist Mumsnet Monitors, who are no doubt reading might decide to screenshot & share on Twitter.

Justabadwife, thanks for replying. I would have no problem with a third space provision either because one of my gay male friends used to find the male toilets too scary to visit when he was at school. He was bullied there more than anywhere. He was also of the opinion that trans women should be allowed to use the female toilets until I pointed out what was blindingly obvious to me ... I think he gets it now ...

@Tubbytwo DP always felt awful using the mens toilets, like they were constantly being watched. In dont get why men cant just have all cubicles too.
@FFSFFSFFS they dont use the toilet if we are out, its just easier.

Agrona

It seems that nothing but the complete eradication of women from the world will do for TRAs.

I think the obvious solution here is unisex facilities, we have male and female changing facilities where I work and also private unisex ones, it works very well.

I understand the issue with self ID and male presenting trans women, however, what about trans women who have had top and bottom surgery and “pass”? Surely people can’t expect them to get changed in male facilities? Not only is that incredibly dangerous for them, but it would make men extremely uncomfortable. If you couldn’t even tell a woman was born a biological male, what would be the issue in them using women’s facilities? They would be causing no distress to anyone there as everyone would assume they were biologically female, and they’re clearly not going to go through extensive surgery removing their penis, hormone therapy etc just to perv on women. What I’m asking is are people objecting to anyone who doesn’t have two X chromosomes using women’s spaces or just male presenting trans women?

I’m asking this, because I do see there are very valid concerns about self ID and male bodies in female spaces, concerns I share, however, when a lot of posters also talk about all trans people in derogative ways, such as referring to them as “it”, I can’t help but feel a lot of this is pure hatred rather than genuine concern for safety.

When it was the original GRA system of about 5000 people (not all of them MtF people) and a gatekept system where the majority intended full transition, female people weren't consulted but the idea was total transition and very small numbers.

It's sadly been proven that there is no way to gatekeep which males, which degree of transition. Who is going to stand at the door of the female facilities and decide who passes and manage the anger and distress of someone told no? We've gone from total transition to fully male presenting people who cannot be questioned if they say they identify as a woman. That system you're suggesting was tried, but there are those who will always push the boundaries further and further. This is still at heart about the female spaces being a validation of personal identity: it doesn't allow for reciprocal care about impact upon the females whose spaces are being used.

Third spaces meet the need of an alternative to sex specific spaces without removing single sex spaces from females. Everyone's needs met.

Please also report any posts which breach guidelines.

Third spaces meet the need of an alternative to sex specific spaces without removing single sex spaces from females. Everyone's needs met

Agreed! If all of this is really about safety, comfort and dignity for all, then third spaces are the only solution. It's quite obvious really.

If you couldn’t even tell a woman was born a biological male, what would be the issue in them using women’s facilities? They would be causing no distress to anyone there as everyone would assume they were biologically female, and they’re clearly not going to go through extensive surgery removing their penis, hormone therapy etc

The issue, clearly, is when obviously male bodied people are using women's facilities. I suggest that many MTF think they pass - when really they don't.

*I can’t help but feel a lot of this is pure hatred rather than genuine concern for safety8

I don't see that at all....what I see is the radical TRA movement pushing and pushing; demanding and demanding, and not caring one bit about the feelings of comfort and dignity of women. It is inevitable that there will be push back and radicalisation in these circumstances. It actually feels like the disregard ( & even 'hatred') is coming the other way.

Ellabars, no, the trans woman does not have the right to use the female toilet if she is not female and it is my right as a female to have this opinion. You haven't got a vagina you aren't coming into the female toilets and you haven't got a penis you aren't coming into the male toilets unless you are a parent with your child and I don't care who this offends. My opinion is just as worthy as anyone elses. I don't care what the person identifies as, it is my opinion that genetalia determines it.

I think it's going to become a case of disabled toilets are going to end up with longer queues as it's the only place that some women will feel safe to use.
I don't blame them and if I ever felt uncomfortable in a toilet I would go to the only place I felt safe which would be the one individual toilet that is space for myself only that has a full door and lock.
Nobody should ever feel unsafe and unfortunately I feel like women are the ones that are going to suffer the most.
I fully believe there are some men and women who do genuinely believe they were born in the wrong body and want to make a change and live their life quietly in whatever body they feel most comfortable in and just get on with their life.
I also believe there are people that are taking advantage of the changes and almost enjoy causing a drama.
I'm sorry if I've used any incorrect offensive terminology- I honestly can't keep up with what is supposed to be correct and what is supposed to be offensive, which is why this is probably badly written.

‘but it would make men extremely uncomfortable.’’

And? Why is it ok to make women and girls extremely uncomfortable?

Men need to accommodate the full bandwidth in which males present.

It’s not up to women and girls to have hard won legal rights progressively ignored, ridiculed and erased.

“I don't see that at all....what I see is the radical TRA movement pushing and pushing; demanding and demanding, and not caring one bit about the feelings of comfort and dignity of women. It is inevitable that there will be push back and radicalisation in these circumstances. It actually feels like the disregard ( & even 'hatred') is coming the other way.”

You don’t see that using derogatory language to describe a whole group of people undermines any points someone is trying to make no matter how valid they may be? I can’t take anyone’s “concerns” seriously when they’re claiming to just be worried about safety, but are referring to all trans people as “it”, constantly misgendering them and mocking their mental health problems. The hatred seeps through on some posts on here. I myself share concerns and disagree on self ID and radical trans activism, however, I don’t think that’s an excuse to disparage all trans people and justify hateful insensitive posts, which I see often on here.

It’s possible to have concerns and disagree aspects of movement, such as trans rights or black rights, and still respect the group of people that movement is for.

You don’t see that using derogatory language to describe a whole group

I've never used, nor intend, derogatory language; and Mumsnet is more severe than virtually any other forum for removing anything deemed remotely offensive.

Personally , I keep mentioning that it is not just about 'safety' but more importantly about the dignity of one's sex and the feelings of comfort in intimate female spaces.

I'm afraid you are going to have to toughen up. it is perfectly legitimate to criticise, analyse and debate; especially when something is impinging on spaces hard won and valued; and necessary. Analysis in and of itself is not hatred. You can't ban discussion of legitimate subjects.

“And? Why is it ok to make women and girls extremely uncomfortable?

Men need to accommodate the full bandwidth in which males present.

It’s not up to women and girls to have hard won legal rights progressively ignored, ridiculed and erased.“

It’s not okay, my point is you can’t claim to be a feminist, which is a movement which aims for equality between the sexes and say it’s not okay for women to have male bodies in their areas because it makes the uncomfortable, but it’s okay for men to have female bodies in their areas even though it makes them uncomfortable , it’s hypocritical and goes against feminism.

*It’s possible to have concerns and disagree aspects of movement, such as trans rights or black rights, and still respect the group of people that movement is for8

If only respect went both ways....then trans people would campaign for their own spaces, wouldn't they? Especially MTFs. And some do, actually.

“I've never used, nor intend, derogatory language; and Mumsnet is more severe than virtually any other forum for removing anything deemed remotely offensive.

Personally , I keep mentioning that it is not just about 'safety' but more importantly about the dignity of one's sex and the feelings of comfort in intimate female spaces.

I'm afraid you are going to have to toughen up. it is perfectly legitimate to criticise, analyse and debate; especially when something is impinging on spaces hard won and valued; and necessary. Analysis in and of itself is not hatred. You can't ban discussion of legitimate subjects.”

You’re missing my point entirely, I don’t need to “toughen up” so that I accept derogatory language about a group of people with “safety” and “dignity” being used an excuse. Mumsnet certainly is not tough on this as there are many many posts on this website that are hateful and not objective “discussion of legitimate subjects”, this site is well known for allowing such posts and not acting against them.

*It’s not okay, my point is you can’t claim to be a feminist, which is a movement which aims for equality between the sexes and say it’s not okay for women to have male bodies in their areas because it makes the uncomfortable, but it’s okay for men to have female bodies in their areas even though it makes them uncomfortable , it’s hypocritical and goes against feminism8

There are many variants of feminism.....and some of those variants are very much rooted in the body; in the female body, & its functions, and in respecting and valuing women and typical female , roles in society; as well as campaigning, of course, for equal opportunities for self expression of talent and ability across many fields. Feminism centres women - by definition.

I can't see the aggressive campaigns by trans men to access male spaces, myself? It is all about men accessing women's intimate spaces.

“If only respect went both ways....then trans people would campaign for their own spaces, wouldn't they? Especially MTFs. And some do, actually.”

So what you’re saying is it’s okay to post hateful comments about trans people because you feel some trans activists are not respectful of your rights? There’s no excuse for derogatory comments and hateful language at all, I can’t see any such posts from trans activists on here and if I did I would challenge them too, however, two wrongs don’t make a right, and if you feel they do there’s nothing left to discuss imo.

You’re missing my point entirely, I don’t need to “toughen up” so that I accept derogatory language about a group of people with “safety” and “dignity” being used an excuse

It is not an excuse. That is the absolute reason I have become engaged, very fervently, in this issue. Women have a right to the natural dignity of their sex. Being a woman is a real and lived experience. Not a feeling. How offensive to suggest otherwise.

Again. there is no derogatory language here - unless, of course, you simply cannot accept any opposition or disagreement - even when expressed in the most reasonable and articulate terms.

It’s not okay, my point is you can’t claim to be a feminist, which is a movement which aims for equality between the sexes and say it’s not okay for women to have male bodies in their areas because it makes the uncomfortable, but it’s okay for men to have female bodies in their areas even though it makes them uncomfortable , it’s hypocritical and goes against feminism.

Where it is a legitimate aim for the protection and dignity then female bodies shouldn't be in male spaces anymore than male bodies should be in female spaces. There is no hypocracy there.

This site is well known for allowing such posts and not acting against them

Really ? Where ? I'd suggest that this forum is well known for being one of the few places, on-line, where women can meet and discuss the issues that most affect them. Trans activists have the rest of the internet to spew vile comments, and threats, without censure.

Are women allowed any space at - all in your mind - which has not been colonised by your version of reality?

However in this case there was no risk. Lots of people, very safe ... I can see that people can be uncomfortable but that's where it should end

So what you’re saying is it’s okay to post hateful comments about trans people

You keep saying this...but where is the evidence? Give some examples of supposed hatred from this thread, for example.