British woman found guilty of making up rape claims

[RoyalCorgi]

The war on women continues:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/30/briton-found-guilty-over-ayia-napa-false-claim-cyprus

The poor, poor woman. Facing a year in jail for being gang-raped.

what harm would be caused by presuming women don't usually consent to sex with their dates and 11 of their friends?

That's very different to:

"Women don't consent to sex with 12 guys at a time. End of."

I agree completely with you that it's unusual. It's the total dismissal of any woman ever wanting to engage in a specific activity that I see as harmful because of the conclusions it leads to about women who do as well as the dismissal of their bodily autonomy.

gronky

What conclusions? Actually curious what damage could be worse than having the alternative assumption.

Honestly I think you could ignore gender in this one instance. It’s a good assumption that almost no PERSON male or female would consent to sex under those circumstances (getting f* by 11 random strangers).

Btw I believe her. I think one could donate to the organization mentioned in the Guardian article to help: NAVAW

I agree completely with you that it's unusual. It's the total dismissal of any woman ever wanting to engage in a specific activity that I see as harmful because of the conclusions it leads to about women who do as well as the dismissal of their bodily autonomy.

Come on - the dismissal was given in the very specific context of a night out in a resort in Cyprus with your holiday fling. I think "end of" is a fairly normal response to that.

Any woman consenting to sex with 12 men at the same time is highly unusual and is more than likely doing it in the context of some sex club/planned event. We all know this. I don't want to pretend that there are liberated women out there having sex with 12 at a time on random nights out and if I don't respect that I am slut shaming. That doesn't happen in the context of this case and we all know it. If there is "consent" in a hotel room in Magaluf or whereever it is a drunken consent.

Thanks for the link, I've donated. I hope she can be helped.

There may be a time and a place for "sex pozzie, don't slut shame, your kink is not my kink " type comments, but surely this thread, about a young woman who has been gang raped, is definitely not it.

In the circumstances that have been described, I think it's fair to say that the chance of any rational woman (or man for that matter) consenting are vanishingly small.

I believe that this woman didn't consent to sex with 12 men.

She has testified clearly that she consented to sex with one man, and said NO to the 11 others who burst into the room.

I also agree that women agreeing to have sex with 12 men all at once would be vanishingly rare - and it certainly shouldn't be normalised.

because of the conclusions it leads to about women who do as well as the dismissal of their bodily autonomy.

Heaven forbid that we should prioritise rape victims over career porn stars making world record attempts as publicity stunts with supervision, mandatory on-site STI testing of the male participants prior to their "turn" with her, and a lot of additional lubricant. Which was the only documented example of a consensual "gang bang" involving 12 or more men with one woman that I could find.

Women do not consent to sex with that many men after a night out.

• Abrasion
• Bruising
• Tearing
• Cystitis risk
• STI risk
• Pregnancy risk
• The risk of battery all preclude any woman saying yes to 12 men at once unless lots and lots of safeguards have been put in place, which isn't the case on a night out.

I believe her.
I’ll donate in the morning (handbag elsewhere in the house).
And yes, it should be clear that, outside prearranged and very specific situations, women do not consent to 11 pals of their date getting sexually involved. FFS.
Also, I can’t help wondering what’s in the judge’s personal history, because that attitude is not normal.

because of the conclusions it leads to about women who do

The conclusions I would come to about a woman who agreed to that would be that she was foolish and naive about what it would entail, the damage it would do to her body, and the lack of regard that men who would do that to her would hold her in. Men being quite happy to call women "slut" and "whore" once he's got his dick wet. No judgement about her morals, but a concern for her safety and well-being as well as worry about her lack of risk assessment.

I think what you're really worried about is the conclusions I would come to about the kind of man who would commit that kind of act. I think you're actually worried about limits being placed on men's perception of their own "bodily autonomy", which I prefer to call "sexual entitlement".

Ultimately, kink acceptance has led to women being murdered by men who keep knives under the pillow and "sex game gone wrong" being used to get a manslaughter conviction when it was premeditated, he had the knife there in advance ffs how is that not strong evidence of premeditation. Kink acceptance has led to women being hit and tied up and the court being told that she consented to that. The only people who've benefitted from kink acceptance have been violent men. Women, even those women who enjoy pain, have not benefitted from kink acceptance. Women who enjoy pain would be much safer if they knew that the police and courts would assume that being hit wasn't ever consensual, because a woman could call the police on any dom who overstepped her boundaries and he would know that.

I believe her

bd67th - indeed, reportedly these Israeli accused have called her a whore. It formed at least part of their defence in court, I believe, and they reportedly said it after the judgement today, whilst having champagne. Reportedly.

Women who enjoy pain would be much safer

As would women who like being tied up as they are helpless to prevent battery and murder once the knots are tied.

I have donated

I believe her.

At least it looks now as if Dominic Raab is going to raise the government’s concerns with the Cyprus authorities. The poor woman. Her mother says she has PTSD which seems very likely in the circumstances.

I'm sure the previous article I read said that one of the men she accused was able to prove by a timestamped selfie that he was in bed with his girlfriend at the time she alleges he raped her. It seems odd that this isn't mentioned.

I've retweeted, following #boycottcyprus or #ibelieveher on twitter leads you to the crowdfunder.

I can't believe there's a discussion of kink on this thread. Wtf

Women do not consent to sex with that many men after a night out.

• Abrasion
• Bruising
• Tearing
• Cystitis risk
• STI risk
• Pregnancy risk
• The risk of battery all preclude any woman saying yes to 12 men at once unless lots and lots of safeguards have been put in place, which isn't the case on a night out.

What? Those things make it a bad idea, they certainly don't "preclude" it. People make a lot of bad decisions about sex, including ones related to their health, or safety, or which seem unpleasant to most people. There is no way a court can come to a conclusion based on the idea that nobody chooses to do sexual things that are unsafe or unhealthy.

The sad thing is that either outcome is a truly horrible one - i.e. her being gang raped or maliciously accusing them.

Oh come on ! How many women want ex with twelve men all at once outside of some porn fantasy for men? The answer is very fucking few.

But that's not event the fucking point here - THIS woman didn't - she testified that he didn't, and had injuries consistent with RAPE.

Something seems off though as the other poster commented above.

What about the rapist who was actually provably not there at the time?

I'm sure the previous article I read said that one of the men she accused was able to prove by a timestamped selfie that he was in bed with his girlfriend at the time she alleges he raped her. It seems odd that this isn't mentioned.

She was gang-raped by 12 men. It's possible that she may have been mistaken as to the identity of one of her attackers. Rape victims.don't sit down and draw sketches of all their attackers as soon as the rape is over, assuming that they get a clear view of them at all.

The sad thing is that either outcome is a truly horrible one - i.e. her being gang raped or maliciously accusing them.

Oh dear. For the benefit of the hard-of-thinking at the back, lying to the police is nowhere near as "horrible" as battering and gang-raping someone.

People make a lot of bad decisions about sex, including ones related to their health, or safety, or which seem unpleasant to most people. There is no way a court can come to a conclusion based on the idea that nobody chooses to do sexual things that are unsafe or unhealthy.

I think you'll find it's usually men who make reckless decisions when it comes to sex. It's men who drag non-consenting women into nightclub cleaners cupboards to dip their wicks. It's men who will pay hundreds to a "Belle Du Jour" for a couple of hours of sexual gratification. It's men who will endanger their jobs, marriages, and liberty to view child abuse images. Women do not make that kind of "bad decision".

From the female perspective, there's "bad decisions" like not using a condom, and then there's handing yourself over a gang of 12 men who may not have your best interests at heart. The latter goes so far beyond "bad decisions" as to be unthinkable for a woman outside of carefully planned and safeguarded situations.

Women have in the backs of our minds "this man might kill me" and that frames our sexual decision-making. A court system that doesn't recognise this is misogynist.

I can't believe there's a discussion of kink on this thread. Wtf

There's always someone who turns up on a rape thread and says "but some women like X therefore we shouldn't presume non-consent to X". So once again I roll my eyes and explain from my position of having been harmed by abusive men using "the scene" as a fig leaf and exited it how "but some women like X" harms all women, including the tiny proportion of women who do like X under very controlled circumstances.

What about the rapist who was actually provably not there at the time?

And the other 11 who were? Explain her injuries? Explain the presence of multiple men's semen on her body?

A group of over ten men gang-raped her in a hotel room. She won't have had a clear look at all of them. If they hung out as a group normally with the guy who wasn't there and she'd seen them around the resort, she may have mistakenly thought that all of them were there when in fact only some of them were there.

An honest mistake in her testimony doesn't make her a false accuser nor does it mean she wasn't raped. It might make it hard to convict her attackers, but that's a separate issue from her being unsafely convicted of false accusation.

MissMaleficent your name is noticeable and your few posts on FWR are very ‘what about the men’

Maybe your attitude towards women is what’s colouring your views on this rape.