Any other lesbians sick of all the rules we're supposed to follow?

[SapphosRock]

I am a mature lesbian, been out for 20+ years. There seems to be so many rules at the moment for acceptable conduct for lesbians. Anyone else finding it tiresome?

A few years ago it was the lesbian purists who set the rules:

⁃	We should mistrust and not date bisexual women 
⁃	Ideally we should be gold star and should only date other gold star lesbians (those who’ve never slept with a man)

Now the rules have changed:

⁃	We should not date trans women - if we do that makes us bisexual (see above for views on bisexual women) 
⁃	We should not associate with trans women in lesbian circles 
⁃	We should not date or associate with trans men in lesbian circles 
⁃	We must treat non binary identities with scorn 

More recently:

⁃	We should not associate with other lesbians who do not adhere to the above rules 

Obviously we are getting rules from the other side too:

⁃	We must date trans women or else we’re bigots 
⁃	If our partners wish to transition to male we must be fine with it - even though a partner on testosterone with facial hair isn’t what we signed up for
⁃	Some TRAs even suggest we’re probably transgender ourselves rather than lesbians 

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

It appears these rules are starting to cause havoc IRL. See thread below where a lesbian group has shut down over disagreement over these rules:

Lesbian social group under attack
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3760886-Lesbian-social-group-under-attack

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

It’s hard enough coming out as a lesbian without being judged or ostracised that you’re not doing it right.

Anyone else finding this or is it just me?!

Everyone else gets why lesbians need their right to be single sex oriented and why it has to be written into law.

Why dose every thing come back to single spaces, give it a rest already!

Thelnebriati surely that should be for the individual to decide rather than a blanket decision for all lesbians?

You dont get to pressure other lesbians. Accept the law exists for a reason, and be happy to be trans inclusive and bisexual.

I think the rules are just pointless , some lesbians will be okay and happy with dating a trans women and that's okay , and some won't and that's also okay. I think if everyone just stopped trying to please everyone and get on with there own relationships then better things will happen.

What defines lesbians if it’s not a same-sex sexual orientation tho?

I prefer a coherent definition of what it means to be a lesbian.

Someone attracted to male bodies, dating someone who could impregnate her, doesn't seem like a lesbian to me.

I'm not going to go on about it to her but I do worry it affects people's understanding of what I mean when I say I'm a lesbian.

There's always been debates within lesbian circles about feminist politics.
You can avoid them if you want but feminism is important to me.

I hate conflict and people falling out. But I would hate apolitical friendships and social groups more.

Isn't it sad that a lesbian saying No, I'm not attracted to any male person, that is my sexual orientation is still a controversial statement?

And well done for yet again confusing sexual orientation with sexual preferences, and trying to slip the peen under the radar as 'just another preference'. But we see you!

Sounds exhausting, didn't realise there were so many rules

I think as another 'mature' lesbian I worry about how confusing things have been for young women in their teens and twenties.

There is so much compassion for Trans and non binary people but when young lesbians want to have boundaries they're often isolated from their social circle.

I do worry it affects people's understanding of what I mean when I say I'm a lesbian.

This is the issue. Lesbian has a very particular meaning. If someone identifies as a lesbian but is in a relationship with man (however that man identifies) then it confuses the meaning of lesbian, and means that other lesbians may be expected to be with men also.

It's the same issue with people who say they are vegetarian, but they eat fish, resulting in other vegetarians being offered fish all the time.

'It's the same issue with people who say they are vegetarian, but they eat fish, resulting in other vegetarians being offered fish all the time.'
Is it weird if I feel equally strong about this issue?

Fish is not a vegetable

It leads me to wonder if it's an autistic thing.

I like when words mean what they are meant to mean.
Life is complicated enough.

Polyamorous straight people are not 'queer'.
For eg

The word lesbian means female homosexual, if a female is sexually or romantically attracted towards members of the opposite sex (males) regardless of how they ‘identify’, then she is either heterosexual or bisexual not a lesbian. Words mean something.

A group that includes males in it is not a lesbian group.

Personally I am sick of TRA’s and their supporters claiming lesbianism includes males. (I could say more but likely would fall foul of the restrictions here.)

I think one of the biggest problems is lesbians being ostracised and criticised by other lesbians.

One can fit all the 'correct' criteria (ie be an adult human female exclusively attracted to other adult human females) but if they don't follow the rules then they're no longer welcome.

An example, I was very uncomfortable about the Get the L out protest last year as I don't think it's right a small group of women feel they can speak for all lesbians. I had quite a few friends fall out with me for being 'disloyal' to lesbians. Most were straight!!

Fish is not a vegetable

And transwomen are not women

A fish is not a vegetable.

If a vegetarian friend of mine ate fish and still claimed to be a vegetarian I would have my own private opinion on that but still be their friend.

Seahorses are not horses

A lesbian is a female homosexual ie a woman who is same sex attracted not same gender attracted. Sex. That’s the only ‘rule’.
You can be heterosexual, homosexual or bi-sexual. There is nothing else. If you are a woman and include male-bodied partners in your dating pool you are heterosexual or bi not lesbian.

Men cannot change sex, therefore they cannot be lesbians. Gender ID in relation to sexual orientation is a bunch of manipulative obfuscating nonsense on the part of certain TRAs with a vested interest.

The thing is that language rarely manages to encompass all the complexities of human beings. The edges of definitions are usually a little undefined except in certain types of technical or legal language, and there is a reason we don't speak that way in everyday life.

If you have a woman who is normally attracted to other women, and in a particular instance she is attracted to a male who looks female, at least on the surface, there isn't really a word for that, bisexual isn't particularly accurate, and chances are the attraction is on the same basis. As far as the mechanics of their sex life, well, those vary pretty considerably within couples of all kinds. People make things work if they are motivated to.

You'd wonder if this were happening all the time, or if the individuals was dating a trans woman who appeared in every way to be a man. Though even then, perhaps it might be an experiment or a lifetime on-off, who knows.

Sapphosrock I would be the same.

It's rubbish if your friends are so fickle but not everyone is like that.

Lesbian connection magazine is a lovely space for social connections between women with varied opinions.

This is an issue that really divides people.

I would prefer not to see straight people on either side of the debate fomenting conflict but at the same time, I don't feel very welcome in lesbian social groups because I don't believe transwomen are women.
So I mostly do talk about the issue with straight women.
Or my partner.

I don't really get into it in lesbian spaces usually.

‘If you have a woman who is normally attracted to other women, and in a particular instance she is attracted to a male who looks female, at least on the surface, there isn't really a word for that, bisexual isn't particularly accurate‘

It is an heterosexual attraction. It has got nothing to do with lesbianism.

I agree that language matters and it would be nice if language had evolved, but we're not there yet.

And I think 'pansexual' better describes a woman willing to date a trans woman though if she called herself a lesbian then I can't get too worked up about it.

I do know a few same sex female couples where one partner is non-binary or identifies as trans. It doesn't trouble me how they choose to define themselves - lesbian, pansexual... whatever really.

I find it strange that the word lesbian is considered to be so pure and sacred and must not be diluted in any way.

You see, I can have a certain amount of empathy with a lesbian who meets a post-op individual and somehow fails to notice (perhaps she's a blind, deaf and anosmic woman?) the individual is not a natal female. Falls in love, marries, whatever, and states she is still a lesbian.

It's not particularly plausible, but I can understand it.

What confuses me is a woman who is married to a man, the man then transitions, they stay together and the woman now "identifies" as a lesbian. That scenario does make me judgey.

Oh and fwiw I'm a "runner up ribbon" lesbian and (unless everyone is very two-faced!) I've not personally experienced any negativity from the "gold stars"

Only individuals should decide who they want to sleep with and date consensually.
If people choose to use labels they should use the agreed definitions for female, male, lesbian and queer for clarity.
Anyone who is judgemental of who others sleep with or don't sleep with needs to butt out.