Any other lesbians sick of all the rules we're supposed to follow?

[SapphosRock]

I am a mature lesbian, been out for 20+ years. There seems to be so many rules at the moment for acceptable conduct for lesbians. Anyone else finding it tiresome?

A few years ago it was the lesbian purists who set the rules:

⁃	We should mistrust and not date bisexual women 
⁃	Ideally we should be gold star and should only date other gold star lesbians (those who’ve never slept with a man)

Now the rules have changed:

⁃	We should not date trans women - if we do that makes us bisexual (see above for views on bisexual women) 
⁃	We should not associate with trans women in lesbian circles 
⁃	We should not date or associate with trans men in lesbian circles 
⁃	We must treat non binary identities with scorn 

More recently:

⁃	We should not associate with other lesbians who do not adhere to the above rules 

Obviously we are getting rules from the other side too:

⁃	We must date trans women or else we’re bigots 
⁃	If our partners wish to transition to male we must be fine with it - even though a partner on testosterone with facial hair isn’t what we signed up for
⁃	Some TRAs even suggest we’re probably transgender ourselves rather than lesbians 

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

It appears these rules are starting to cause havoc IRL. See thread below where a lesbian group has shut down over disagreement over these rules:

Lesbian social group under attack
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3760886-Lesbian-social-group-under-attack

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

It’s hard enough coming out as a lesbian without being judged or ostracised that you’re not doing it right.

Anyone else finding this or is it just me?!

‘People make it work if they are motivated to’

Well holly fuck of rape apologists. What a way to gas light.

Well holly fuck of rape apologists. What a way to gas light.

What in gods name are you talking about?

Motivation rather implies that there is no rape involved.

There are all kinds of people who find physical problems involving sexual activity with their partners, and make it work, because they are motivated to do so.

FFS.

The "rules" should be for spaces, events and communities, not for individuals. This seems simple to me. The question of who is a "real lesbian" seems like a red herring that's just going to make people mad, it's much less important than the practical question of who you want to include in your meetup.

The problem is of course that a lot of very aggressive people don't allow "non-inclusive" events and spaces to happen.

Lots of lesbians happily co-exist alongside trans people without bothering one another.

The overwhelming majority I would say, and it's not just co-existing, it's happily enjoying each others company. Too many mainly heterosexual people with little connection with the LGBT community on sites like this bought so much into anti-trans propaganda about issues that most LGBT people just don't see as issues at all.

You surely can't be suspicious of every lesbian who used a #LwiththeT hashtag following the protest?!

Actually the people on here probably could.

@snowblight well said!

Are there rules for being a lesbian? I must have missed the memo. I just thought lesbians were homosexual females and proceeded from there. That’s a pretty specific definition, and either you fit it or you don’t.

Having said that I never got my membership card or learnt the secret handshake, and if there’s an underground plot for the homos to rule the world and corrupt all your DC I’ve never heard that either. Maybe I’ve been lesbianing wrong for all these years.

“on the other that all words and terms are completely concrete and define meaning.”

Words do have a meaning.

A female who finds a masculine female attractive is experiencing a same sex attraction: a homosexual attraction. A female who is attracted to a feminine man is experiencing an opposite sex attraction: a heterosexual attraction.

It reminds me of the men who have attractions to feminine men, but still want to think of themselves as heterosexual, when they are objectively not, e.g. the men who go to Thailand to pick up ‘ladyboys’.

Then we have heterosexual males who want to convince themselves that lesbians will date them if they put on a dress, a wig or have surgeries. These men are no different than other heterosexual men from times gone by, who used to claim to be lesbians, but didn’t bother to actually claim to be women. Porn is a huge influence on this current crop imho.

People have to understand that you cannot make someone see you as you desire to be seen. If someone tells me they are a ‘lesbian woman’, but I can see they are a male, I will classify them as a heterosexual male. If a woman says she has same sex attraction, but claims to be heterosexual, I will classify her in my mind as bisexual. Others will do the same to me, it doesn’t bother me if others do it to me, because I am secure in who I am. Only those that are insecure and doubtful insist we see them as they see themselves.

Who makes up the Lesbian Rules?

Where can I read the full list of them?

I'm simply curious but if any of my hetero mates told me that I was hetero-ing wrongly I'd find that hilarious and maybe then tell them to sling their fucking hook.

Couldn't lesbians do the same?

HorseWithNoYawnsToGive they're everywhere!

Look at my OP and the response at 12.20 for a perfect example.

*sling their fucking hook.

Couldn't lesbians do the same?*

They should probably do that to the majority of heterosexual 'lesbian experts' on here.

"I think one of the biggest problems is lesbians being ostracised and criticised by other lesbians."

That is utter bollocks. It can be annoying, or extremely depressing to be criticised by other dykes for not doing lesbian properly, but that is true of any group. But the biggest problem, let's face it, is lesbians who still get physically attacked by males on buses, by lesbians who are still afraid of male violence and threats of violence by males.

Yet again, we see someone not willing to name the issue of male violence............. Straight men, after all, really don't like a woman who says no, never, not ever.

Meh, at least the hetero lesbian experts tend to know what a lesbian is

Yy somedyke

‘at least the hetero lesbian experts tend to know what a lesbian is’

Exactly.

‘Straight men, after all, really don't like a woman who says no, never, not ever.’

Yes seems a lot of people are upset that women are saying no to het men.

the biggest problem, let's face it, is lesbians who still get physically attacked by males on buses

I don't think anyone is arguing with this.

Who makes up the Lesbian Rules?
Everyone apparently because lesbians are women and every fucker thinks they have a right to tell women how to woman properly and then get awfully cross if the women don't obey.

The irony of people telling you that men can have an opinion on who is a lesbian but women speaking out in defence of lesbians should be shamed!

If you cannot clearly define homosexuality, then you cannot legislate for homophobia.

Men and women still suffer from discrimination and harassment based on their same sex sexual orientation.

If you find the definition of homosexuality / lesbianism too restrictive, you could find another that is more representative? After all, in this era of hundreds of genders and labels, it shouldn't be difficult to come up with something else.
For example, I've seen 'homoflexible' used by those who are predominantly same sex attracted but don't have a problem with an opposite sex partner if the attraction is there.

No one can enforce what labels you use and there will always be disagreement in any group as one word cannot cover everyone's preferences, but young lesbians are under a lot of pressure these days to accept transwomen as partners and lesbians who want to preserve their same sex spaces are harassed and not allowed to do so.

On the other hand, there are lots of queer and LGBT spaces where women who have no problem with dating trans people can hang out.

If there wasn't such vitriol and harassment against women's same sex attraction, then I doubt 'lesbian' would be such a highly charged label.

When I realised I was attracted to both sexes, I didn't see the need to keep insisting that I am defined as heterosexual. Rather than expect the term heterosexual (or lesbian!) to accommodate me, it made logical sense to find a label that was a better fit. Bisexual works for me, although this has now also been highjacked to include the ridiculous notion that I should be attracted to genders, when I'm actually attracted to the two sexes.

Why should those of us who value our sexual orientation have to give up our own terms? Why can't the queer crowd come up with their own labels and leave us alone?

Isnt this the conflict between 'is' and 'ought'. We need clear straightforward definitions in order to communicate as disparate humans. The problem comes with the therefore you must......

If you cannot clearly define homosexuality, then you cannot legislate for homophobia.

Nonsense. Women who date trans woman and men who date trans men are just as vulnerable to homophobia as same sex couples.

The equality act covers protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation. And the ea defines that as gay, lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual. How does that not cover anyone discriminating against a women dating either a transman or a transwoman?

Practically any man can be a transwoman these days according to Stonewall. I'd imagine many people would assume a woman and a transwoman were a heterosexual couple. And if a transman looked fairly masculine with facial hair, people would also assume they were a heterosexual couple and therefore less likely to attract the wrong sort of attention.

The general public are still under the assumption that transwomen are highly feminine gay men who transition due to dysphoria i.e. people still think this whole debate is about the miniscule population of transsexuals who are in relationships with other men and could pass for a heterosexual couple.

Of course if the person is noticeably trans i.e. in most cases they look neither like a man nor a woman - it's obvious they are trying to emulate the look of the opposite sex, then they are potentially vulnerable to harassment or worse from people who are prejudiced towards gender non-conforming behaviour and attire. But I personally would class that as transphobia in its proper definition, not the 'misgendering is literal violence' kind.

You say there should be a way of filtering out bepenised people from dating apps. I agree. But was told in no uncertain terms in an exchange on Twitter last year with a number of prominent commentators on this topic that this was a transphobic position to take, as this was reducing people to their genitals and having a genital preference is transphobic. (Then they all blocked me, so I don't know what else they might have to say on that subject...)

Nonsense. Women who date trans woman and men who date trans men are just as vulnerable to homophobia as same sex couples.

That doesn’t mean you don’t need a clear definition of homophobia. Homophobia suffered by a man and a transman is because they are perceived to be a homosexual couple. Two platonic friends of the same sex could equally suffer homophobic discrimination, or someone who is not disabled could suffer disability discrimination if someone perceives her to be disabled. That does not mean platonic friends are suddenly homosexual or that a non-disabled woman is suddenly disabled.

as this was reducing people to their genitals and having a genital preference is transphobic

Lol how do they think humans reproduce? By shaking hands and hoping for the best?

People are sexually aroused by sexed bodies which includes genitals.

Humans have managed just fine with our sexual orientations for millennia. :)

It would be great to have proper same sex dating apps, but men have always fetishized lesbian sex and will find ways to push into such scenes. It didn't stop weird creepy men from getting into gay bars and clubs to harass women, so it's unsurprising they will sign up to dating apps as well now.