Any other lesbians sick of all the rules we're supposed to follow?

[SapphosRock]

I am a mature lesbian, been out for 20+ years. There seems to be so many rules at the moment for acceptable conduct for lesbians. Anyone else finding it tiresome?

A few years ago it was the lesbian purists who set the rules:

⁃	We should mistrust and not date bisexual women 
⁃	Ideally we should be gold star and should only date other gold star lesbians (those who’ve never slept with a man)

Now the rules have changed:

⁃	We should not date trans women - if we do that makes us bisexual (see above for views on bisexual women) 
⁃	We should not associate with trans women in lesbian circles 
⁃	We should not date or associate with trans men in lesbian circles 
⁃	We must treat non binary identities with scorn 

More recently:

⁃	We should not associate with other lesbians who do not adhere to the above rules 

Obviously we are getting rules from the other side too:

⁃	We must date trans women or else we’re bigots 
⁃	If our partners wish to transition to male we must be fine with it - even though a partner on testosterone with facial hair isn’t what we signed up for
⁃	Some TRAs even suggest we’re probably transgender ourselves rather than lesbians 

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

It appears these rules are starting to cause havoc IRL. See thread below where a lesbian group has shut down over disagreement over these rules:

Lesbian social group under attack
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3760886-Lesbian-social-group-under-attack

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

It’s hard enough coming out as a lesbian without being judged or ostracised that you’re not doing it right.

Anyone else finding this or is it just me?!

Nonsense. Women who date trans woman and men who date trans men are just as vulnerable to homophobia as same sex couples.

Some people will make that mistake (think it's a same-sex couple) so what? We still need to be able to define homophobia even when there are fucking idiots about. If nothing else your comment proves that homophobes are fucking idiots.

So it isn't "nonsense".

Xiaoxiong times have clearly changed. It's been well over 10 years since I used a lesbian dating site (no apps in those days) and there was definitely the option to include /exclude bisexual women from the search. I wonder if the Twitter commentators you engaged with would consider this bi-phobic?

I'm surprised the designers of these sites / apps haven't made them more sophisticated. I imagine a lesbian wanting to filter out the bepenised would be a fairly standard requirement.

I don't think it's about whether or not it's possible, these people were saying that the very idea of filtering out people with penises on a dating app is completely transphobic. I obviously don't know but I imagine that 10 years ago they would have supported filtering out anyone on the basis that anyone should be able to make their own decisions on who to date on ANY basis.

That's still where I am (and it sounds like you are as well). But apparently we are now cruel transphobes for saying that.

I can't say I agree with a word OP is saying nor do any of the lesbian-exclusive groups I chat with, but I'm not in the UK. There are no options for screening out MEN on dating apps let alone bisexuals. Even if you put women-woman exclusive it means nothing when anyone can ID as a woman, and many beardy bros not in dresses do, as well as the ones looking for threesomes. Every lesbian or bisexual seeking women I know who uses dating apps has had the experience of thinking they were talking to a woman only to find out it was a pre-op transwoman who had lied and wasted their time or been catchfished by some dude's girlfriend into a threesome. Your mistake SapphosRock, is thinking these apps give a motherfuck what lesbians want. Why would they, since anyone can be a lesbian now, female homosexuals are the minority even in our own demographic? We're outvoted.

There wouldn't be a problem if everyone who is sure that the Get the L out lesbians are such a tiny group would leave us alone to organise our own lesbian spaces without vilifying us, threatening violence, and going all out to destroy any business that agrees to host our gatherings?

Since we are so tiny and insignificant it is amazing how much hostility and violence is directed towards us. If the vast majority of lesbians are fine with girl dick then why all this insecurity about allowing us our own spaces, where we can relax and enjoy our outdated, genitally fixated selves?

Why are transbians their female acolytes, and the wokey blokeys on twitter so threatened by the idea of adult human female same sex oriented lesbians relaxing in the company of other adult human female same sex oriented lesbians? If we really are a dying breed of weirdos that nobody would ever be interested in joining it makes no sense at all to get so worked up over our separatism.

If you really believed that we were a tiny insignificant minority why persecute us with such virulent hatred?

I'm old and have a host of good memories, fledgling lesbians of today deserve the choice of having access to lesbian separatist spaces, as well as trans-inclusive spaces so they could compare and decide where they feel happiest.

As it is they have no concept of how exhilarating, healing and safe woman centric, lesbian spaces used to be. How different the atmosphere becomes once all males are excluded and wild, unfettered female energies are given free rein.

Welcome to transphobia, Dave! In my day we called the men who demanded that lesbians consider sleeping with them rapey homophobes. Now, if you exclude people with penises from your dating pool you are transphobic.

I just don't understand why people can't live and let live. I mean, I do understand, it's about transwomen who were straight men demanding that lesbians validate their identity. And when those of us who say "live and let live" stand up to these cotton ceiling activists, we are labelled terfs and transphobes, fired from jobs, blocked from social media, attacked outside gatherings, kicked out of political parties etc etc.

I should also add it doesn't matter if you put "cis lesbian" seeking "cis lesbian" or any of that lingo, they don't respect your boundaries at all.

Since we are so tiny and insignificant it is amazing how much hostility and violence is directed towards us. If the vast majority of lesbians are fine with girl dick then why all this insecurity about allowing us our own spaces, where we can relax and enjoy our outdated, genitally fixated selves?

Yes, you'd think they wouldn't be bothered by this rare and dying breed. It's almost as if they don't believe a word of their own rhetoric.

It goes like that when you're dealing with people who view any non-compliance as an existential threat.

It's the whole 'oh can't you just chill and not mind what 'lesbian' means so long as everyone's being nice to each other and doing their own thing' that means if I say I'm a female homosexual I get told to die in a fire.

So no. I'm a female homosexual. That's what a lesbian is. Words have meanings. Words are the basis of legal protection. Peoples individualism and selfishness in wanting a word and definition bent around and made flexible to include them is damaging the communities they are appropriating. (Not that they care, because it's all about them.) There's nothing 'nice' about that at all. Boundaries. Healthy boundaries. Don't step on mine and I'll respect yours.

As it is they have no concept of how exhilarating, healing and safe woman centric, lesbian spaces used to be. How different the atmosphere becomes once all males are excluded and wild, unfettered female energies are given free rein.

This part confuses me. I'm a member of two lesbian groups - both trans inclusive. Live in an area very densely populated with LGBT people, probably more so than any other part of the country... yet as far as I know a trans women hasn't turned up to either group. Not even once.

Same goes for women's groups, I've been in female sports clubs and other hobby groups. Been on women's only coaching sessions and courses. Never once had a trans woman attend. So the idea of women-centric spaces being a thing of the past doesn't ring true.

However some women are making it out to be a huge issue and disagreements within the groups are spoiling these healing, safe woman-centric spaces (see the thread I linked to in the OP) which is ironic really!

I've been in female sports clubs and other hobby groups. Been on women's only coaching sessions and courses. Never once had a trans woman attend. So the idea of women-centric spaces being a thing of the past doesn't ring true.

Ok. Theory of mind time. Can you conceptualise that other women aren't you, don't go to your specific clubs and may possibly have had other experiences than you have?

Yippee for your wonderful trans inclusivity, I get it. This is a tub thumping thread that's actually anti lesbian in disguise.

Some lesbians don't want to do this. Some lesbians are not having happy wonderful experiences. Some lesbians are dealing with shit because of the trans inclusiveness that is making their lives worse and not better. Go and be Saved and have a wonderful joyful time. And leave me alone.

So we have Homosexual, heterosexual, bi/pan sexual , homogender and heterogender , bi/pan gender

And we clearly need a nifty word homogender people attracted to those who consider themselves of feminine /masculine / any other gender . legbian?

Ok. Theory of mind time. Can you conceptualise that other women aren't you, don't go to your specific clubs and may possibly have had other experiences than you have?

Of course - I am trying to understand the extent of it and whether it's more fear of it happening than it actually happening.

...Gaydar girls there was an option to filter out bisexual women. It seems quite controversial now! Is this still an option?

I haven't tried that one! I will now. I am a bisexual woman so i don't want to filter them out obviously, but I want people who want to filter me out to have that option. :) Sadly I doubt it's still there, judging by Her and Tinder.

It’s happened to me. About three years ago. I used to go to a lesbian group centred on a particular hobby/worldview. Women in that group dressed normally (jeans and sweaters). A transwoman joined. This person wore floaty dresses and lots of make up. They dominated conversations and changed the whole dynamic. They had a particular smirk that suggested they were getting off on this.

I’m single and am considering dating again but don’t want to put myself out there on apps when I know I’ll end up wading through loads of unwanted Male attention.

I mourn the loss of proper lesbian spaces that I remember in my youth.

I too think this is a goady and anti-lesbian thread. I remember the ‘gold star’ nonsense. Nobody took it seriously or tried to exclude women from spaces because of it. The threat from the trans agenda is on a whole other scale. I feel utterly isolated from the lesbian community as a result of it.

I too think this is a goady and anti-lesbian thread.

This is sadly my point. Lesbians are afraid to speak their mind for fear of being goady. They're either too inclusive or not inclusive enough. So many rules.

I remember the ‘gold star’ nonsense. Nobody took it seriously or tried to exclude women from spaces because of it.

But there was definitely a hierarchy. And lesbian purists were scornful of women who weren't gold star. Bisexual women were definitely excluded from lesbian spaces - I used to go to a lesbian walking group that specifically stated bisexual women weren't welcome (and trans women as it happens).

The threat from the trans agenda is on a whole other scale. I feel utterly isolated from the lesbian community as a result of it.

I'm sorry you feel like this It's truly shit that the community has divided the way it has.

When I realised I was attracted to both sexes, I didn't see the need to keep insisting that I am defined as heterosexual. Rather than expect the term heterosexual (or lesbian!) to accommodate me, it made logical sense to find a label that was a better fit. Bisexual works for me, although this has now also been highjacked to include the ridiculous notion that I should be attracted to genders, when I'm actually attracted to the two sexes.

^This, took the words right out of my fingers.

So we have Homosexual, heterosexual, bi/pan sexual , homogender and heterogender , bi/pan gender

To clarify, bi/pan sexual, bi/ pan gender are different from bisexuality. I'm attracted to women that do not identify as being men and I'm attracted to men that do not identify as being women. My attraction to women requires they must have female genitalia (not fabrications) and my attraction to men requires they must have male genitalia (not fabrications). Facsimile genitalia is not attractive to me in the slightest (neither are genuine penises tbh).

In no way am I attracted to genders or sex mash-ups, that is my right. Trying to define bisexuality as pansexual or attempting to lump them together is disingenuous and misleading as they are categorically not interchangeable.

That’s rubbish, in my experience. Nobody tried to exclude me from lesbian speeches for not being good star or for dating bisexual women. The ‘rules’ didn’t exist, or were viewed with amusement.

This is completely different from the utter destruction of lesbian spaces and the rape culture the ‘cotton ceiling’ to which lesbians are subject today.

To put it another way, we had the choice to ignore any stupid ‘rules’ about gold starness or whatever. We have no choice left now, since there isn’t an option to be in lesbian spaces as whoever we are, since those spaces no longer exist.

From lesbian spaces that should say.

I maintain this is a goady and anti-lesbian thread.

I have that feeling too, tile.

That was aimed at the OP, in case it isn’t clear.

I don’t believe in rules. But I do believe in women-only spaces and female solidarity.