Any other lesbians sick of all the rules we're supposed to follow?

[SapphosRock]

I am a mature lesbian, been out for 20+ years. There seems to be so many rules at the moment for acceptable conduct for lesbians. Anyone else finding it tiresome?

A few years ago it was the lesbian purists who set the rules:

⁃	We should mistrust and not date bisexual women 
⁃	Ideally we should be gold star and should only date other gold star lesbians (those who’ve never slept with a man)

Now the rules have changed:

⁃	We should not date trans women - if we do that makes us bisexual (see above for views on bisexual women) 
⁃	We should not associate with trans women in lesbian circles 
⁃	We should not date or associate with trans men in lesbian circles 
⁃	We must treat non binary identities with scorn 

More recently:

⁃	We should not associate with other lesbians who do not adhere to the above rules 

Obviously we are getting rules from the other side too:

⁃	We must date trans women or else we’re bigots 
⁃	If our partners wish to transition to male we must be fine with it - even though a partner on testosterone with facial hair isn’t what we signed up for
⁃	Some TRAs even suggest we’re probably transgender ourselves rather than lesbians 

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

It appears these rules are starting to cause havoc IRL. See thread below where a lesbian group has shut down over disagreement over these rules:

Lesbian social group under attack
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3760886-Lesbian-social-group-under-attack

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

It’s hard enough coming out as a lesbian without being judged or ostracised that you’re not doing it right.

Anyone else finding this or is it just me?!

OP what is your definition of the word lesbian?

My definition of the word lesbian is the one that applies to me. An adult human female exclusively attracted to other adult human females.

However I appreciate there are grey areas and other people who don't fit the above criteria may still consider themselves to be a lesbian.

An ex of mine claimed a woman cannot claim to be a lesbian if she has ever had sex with a man and enjoyed it. That would make her bisexual. She felt the same about any woman claiming to be straight who had enjoyed sex with another woman. Ex would say she's not straight she's bisexual.

I disagree. I believe sexuality is fluid rather than rigid. I think a person can ultimately be a lesbian even if they have experimented with the opposite sex / gender. I don't think lesbianism should be an exclusive gang.

As I said before, I believe an attraction to both women and trans women would make a woman pansexual rather than a lesbian but I don't feel strongly enough about it to criticise women who choose to date trans women.

NBs can be traumatised by growing up female is this misogynistic society and being NB can feel safer ... they are not doing it to annoy anyone.

I'm sure they are traumatised like a great many women. But agreeing that someone is indeed neither male nor female is problematic for a lot of reasons.

medium.com/4th-wave-feminism/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny-7a7e5ec539ba

www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/11/30/36431918/if-the-future-is-nonbinary-its-a-bleak-one-for-women

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/08/10/coming-non-binary-throws-women-bus/

Saphos sexuality can be fluid for some people. People can define their own sexuality that way if they feel it suits, but you can’t define others sexuality as that, or redefine words using that reasoning.

I don’t agree that they are neither male or female though... “nb” is a social construct, not a physical reality.

If I grew up with the internet and rampant, porn-soaked misogyny, I could imagine opting for “NB” too.

For most girls I know it has been for a period, like 1.5 - 3 years

My view is that compassion and acceptance is the key. If they feel disrespected or rejected by women, it will only increase the alienation they already feel

So if it's a social construct, why are we being asked in all earnest to 'respect' non-binary identities? How does that even manifest itself? It's self-evident nonsense.

I have a lot of compassion for troubled young women. There seems to be a lot of it about (thanks, internet).

It's disrespectful to say 'I'm not like THOSE women...' as a way of self-protection, even if it comes from a frightened place.

SarahAndQuack thank you for your post and acknowledgment.

I also had to take a break from FWR for a while and the following is absolutely true:

I stopped reading FWR because there are so many threads full of straight women congratulating each other for protecting the poor little lesbians from transwomen and their penises. Any time an actual lesbian shows up and dares to say anything that isn't the party line, they are attacked.

With all due respect this isn't about your friend, this is about men shamelessly commandeering an exclusively female sexuality - as if the portrayal of 'lesbians' in porn wasn't insult enough.

And what's your definition of an 'actual lesbian'? You seem to be running round in ever decreasing circles sapphosrock. Nice name btw

I know some GC women spoiled ballots because all candidates (including Tories) were abysmal. I can imagine some abstained from voting at all.

I am not aware of any GC feminist who said they would vote Tory specifically to protest Labor/LD trans policies (?).

Please post screenshots. And what’s with assuming they are straight.. are people putting their sexuality in their bios now?

Goosefoot wrote - "If you have a woman who is normally attracted to other women, and in a particular instance she is attracted to a male who looks female, at least on the surface, there isn't really a word for that, bisexual isn't particularly accurate, and chances are the attraction is on the same basis."

Are you trying to suggest that bisexual should only describe people who self-identify as bisexual or at least do not object to bisexual as a descriptor of themselves?

I'm sure it can be difficult, shocking, upsetting and life-changing for a lesbian to discover that she is not as homosexual as she thought she was, by being attracted to a male person who may superficially appear female, but I think that widening the bandwidth of lesbianism, to include such male people, will not help these male-attracted women in the long run.

wrong often it just means calling a 16yo girl “they” for a while, and standing up for her wearing a tux to Prom instead of a dress (because while FWR might support girls wearing that, her high school doesn’t).

She then (God willing) settles into being a GNC woman (often lesbian) and lives happily ever after. But how can she feel welcomed into feminism if we’ve spent 2 years judging her.

*I am not aware of any GC feminist who said they would vote Tory specifically to protest Labor/LD trans policies (?).

Please post screenshots. And what’s with assuming they are straight.. are people putting their sexuality in their bios now?*

I assume you're referring to my post?

I don't have any intention of posting screenshots (WTF? You want me to out myself and share info on people I know without their consent?). And I know their sexuality because people discuss these things.

I'm a bi woman who has, through chance no intentional reason, only ever been with men and other bi women. Are lesbians really bothered? Are they worried we'll leave them for men?

Exactly Vesuvia it's this bizarre insistence that - rather than the individual reflecting and changing their own beliefs based on new experiences - language itself must dissemble and reassemble itself to suit the changing experience of that onw individual.

That's not how language works! It can only change gradually, through common accepted usage and broad consensus.

In this case it just hasn't happened, but certain individuals and influential groups are determined to impose it from the top down regardless.

I'm a bi woman who has, through chance no intentional reason, only ever been with men and other bi women. Are lesbians really bothered? Are they worried we'll leave them for men?

I'm afraid so. It's silly really as there's no reason a bisexual woman would be any less faithful.

Christ almighty

Was this just a back door route to yet another “what is a lesbian?” thread? Ffs.

Like, do whatever you want - have sex with whomever you want (with consent, obv)

But I thought FWR was one of the few (only) places where lesbians could just be female homosexuals in peace

I saw someone do this on DL once (site for gay dudes) - it got shut down real quick

*wrong often it just means calling a 16yo girl “they” for a while, and standing up for her wearing a tux to Prom instead of a dress (because while FWR might support girls wearing that, her high school doesn’t).

She then (God willing) settles into being a GNC woman (often lesbian) and lives happily ever after. But how can she feel welcomed into feminism if we’ve spent 2 years judging her.*

You're describing my niece. Sadly she's now taking testosterone and wearing a binder. I'm not convinced that using desired pronouns brings young women back from the brink.

I would be interested to hear the OP's thoughts as I'd like to know the context in which they mentioned NB people.

Thats a shame. On the flip side Ive never been with a straight man whose thought my being bi meant I would be more likely to cheat/leave them for a woman. They tend to think it means I would be well up for a threesome though.

I'm not convinced that using desired pronouns brings young women back from the brink.

Lisa Marciano and Sasha Ayad (2 therapists who work with ROGD teens) both recommend delaying social transition until adulthood, because it’s so hard for adolescents to row back from it, rather than get sucked into medical transition.

wrong solidarity to you. And apologies if my post seemed flippant, there are no easy answers I know.

In the case I mentioned, her parents went with “they” and embraced “NB” - they were worried she might otherwise go to “he” with binding / hormones. She’s now a settled young woman who says it was a coping mechanism. I realise it doesn’t always work like that though.

That's okay 2B, I absolutely didn't think you were being flippant. I could tell you were coming from a good place. (The OP, however...)

It's so sad, this has consumed her life. She's recently started T and has been wearing binders for years. We barely speak because 'he' is a step too far for me - being told to adjust my reality is very familiar from having been abused.

I've spoken online with some lovely detransitioners who have 'come back' and I live in hope.

Yes to be clear this was a they/them situation. There is no medical pathway involved, basically just “not performing femininity.”

he/him is different because there is an expectation of hormones and surgery

wrongsideofhistorymyarse interested in what place you think I'm coming from? Am I yet again guilty of wrongthink?

That sounds hard wrongsideof I do hope your niece will be okay (and you too). I was able to stay in touch via text (no pronouns needed :) but they/them is all round easier than he/him. Hang in there

Sapphos lovely strawman there. I was just wondering why in a post about lesbians you shoehorned this in '⁃We must treat non binary identities with scorn'.*