Any other lesbians sick of all the rules we're supposed to follow?

[SapphosRock]

I am a mature lesbian, been out for 20+ years. There seems to be so many rules at the moment for acceptable conduct for lesbians. Anyone else finding it tiresome?

A few years ago it was the lesbian purists who set the rules:

⁃	We should mistrust and not date bisexual women 
⁃	Ideally we should be gold star and should only date other gold star lesbians (those who’ve never slept with a man)

Now the rules have changed:

⁃	We should not date trans women - if we do that makes us bisexual (see above for views on bisexual women) 
⁃	We should not associate with trans women in lesbian circles 
⁃	We should not date or associate with trans men in lesbian circles 
⁃	We must treat non binary identities with scorn 

More recently:

⁃	We should not associate with other lesbians who do not adhere to the above rules 

Obviously we are getting rules from the other side too:

⁃	We must date trans women or else we’re bigots 
⁃	If our partners wish to transition to male we must be fine with it - even though a partner on testosterone with facial hair isn’t what we signed up for
⁃	Some TRAs even suggest we’re probably transgender ourselves rather than lesbians 

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

It appears these rules are starting to cause havoc IRL. See thread below where a lesbian group has shut down over disagreement over these rules:

Lesbian social group under attack
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3760886-Lesbian-social-group-under-attack

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

It’s hard enough coming out as a lesbian without being judged or ostracised that you’re not doing it right.

Anyone else finding this or is it just me?!

as far as I know a trans women hasn't turned up to either group. Not even once.

Same goes for women's groups, I've been in female sports clubs and other hobby groups. Been on women's only coaching sessions and courses. Never once had a trans woman attend. So the idea of women-centric spaces being a thing of the past doesn't ring true

There's a qualitative difference between a group that is only for a certain type of person, and a group that currently happens to only have people in it of that type but would allow people of another type too. For some people there would be a feeling of security in the former that isn't there in the latter.

My experience with LGBT groups is of them centring the trans even if there aren't any trans people there…

the world has now been made unnecessarily difficult to navigate,

Nah it’s really hasn’t. You’re either attracted to someone or you’re not.

If a woman has only been attracted to women her whole life and then meets a particular trans woman and is attracted to her, that doesn’t mean she’s suddenly not a lesbian.

Not if she defines herself so.

My experience with LGBT groups is of them centring the trans even if there aren't any trans people there…

Like an almost spiritual omnipresence?

Bloody hell, thank God I'm asexual, nothing applies to me,

Not a spiritual omnipresence. But a groupthink. Which is powerful.

I was trying to separate eg bisexual from bigender , sorry if that was unclear.

So you could be heterosexual and bigender at the same time even.

Not if she defines herself so

In order to communicate effectively we need to have a common understanding of words. This is even more important in law. To suggest that everyone makes up their own definition of words is... wonderland.

MIdgebabe

I was trying to separate eg bisexual from bigender , sorry if that was unclear.

Based on your previous posts and our few brief but agreeable interactions I anticipated as much. I felt the need to clarify for lurkers or those that seek to redefine everyone around them to suit their desires.

So you could be heterosexual and bigender at the same time even.

Makes sense to me!

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Prior to getting married I was pushed away from lesbians I was interested in due to the fact that I am bisexual. It didn't bother me in the slightest - I completely understood (and would to this day). Lesbian aversion to bisexual females as partners makes sense IMO for whatever reason - no justification or explanation required. The only thing that bugged me about my experiences was that (several times) the vocalized reason was that I couldn't make up my mind or I would cheat which was a really insulting assumption and shaming for no reason other than to be cruel... a simple "no" would have worked great in these instances.

Lesbian acceptance or attraction to transwomen as partners blows my fucking mind. I mean if you willfully consent to suck dick and engage in PIV penetration you don't fall under the long-standing definition of female homosexual or lesbian. I don't think it's that hard to understand. Why try to claim you are something you aren't? Seems disingenuous, misleading, and manipulative to the core. Define yourself as you please of course but don't expect everybody to accept and/or validate your contrived version of reality.

As I am constantly saying IRL, "[w]ords mean things! When you use the wrong words to communicate or redefine words based on your desires (not reality) people won't understand what you are trying to say."

If you always talk about 'your car' but only own a truck people literally won't understand what you are saying regarding bed length/depth and weight load ability unless they see your vehicle in person. They might envision/think you drive an El Camino (car/truck hybrid) or say "oh you mean you drive a truck" and if you say "no I drive a car" you are deliberately misleading your audience. If they see your truck and you keep insisting it is a car they will know you've misled them or you don't know what you actually drive and are confused. At this point there's a complete breakdown in communication and you're just talking for no reason because your audience can't decipher what you are actually saying and are likely to discredit most if not all of what you said about your 'car'.

Appropriation doesn't look good on anyone.

Being bisexual means you are attracted to both sexes.

Being a lesbian means you are a female homosexual. That means you are only attracted to one sex.

Nice try with the attempting to make out that tautology is some 'weird new rule' nasty lesbians have made up to hurt your feelz tho. You should also start a thread about water being wet, and another one about gravity pulling you down. Best of luck

RuffleCrow

🤓

I'm curious as to your comment about non binary identities.

Why should anyone take them seriously?

I'm a mature lesbian, also been out for 20+ years and I don't agree with very much of what you've said, SapphosRock. (And yes, I've been to Skala Eressos too).

I've very rarely heard the phrase gold star in the lesbian circles I frequent. It seems very old-fashioned.

I'm not aware of any of these 'rules' you mention. There are groups of lesbians who choose to socialise without the presence of transpeople, there are groups that happily accept them. There are some very pro-trans lesbians, there are some very anti-trans lesbians. There are no rules but on the whole people tend to gather with those who roughly share their opinions. Just as I tend to prefer to spend my time with people who are pro-Europe rather than Brexiteers, or people who are interested in books and theatre rather than sport.

You've set up a straw man argument with this talk of 'rules'. There are none and I'm mightily annoyed that you may have given some young lesbians reading this thread, and some straight people too, the idea that being involves being anything but yourself. If you're hanging around with a crowd that you feel uncomfortable with, change the crowd.

I remember when authoritarian asshats had limited success taking down blogs, chat rooms, and forums, with the gold star Lesbians can't trust anyone but other gold star Lesbians because reasons dispute.
Sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not. After a few years it stopped working entirely.
Sorry to see it being brought back for another round of divide and conquer.

People tend to group with likeminded people. It seems to result in lesbian spaces (for female homosexuals, including some trans guys) and “queer” spaces for everyone else, including TW.

Just hang out where you’re happy I guess, and ignore the rest?

And the only people I hear say “gold star lesbian” these days are transbians, seems an odd term to use here

seems an odd term to use here

It certainly does. My partner and I have clocked up around 60 years of active involvement in the lesbian community in various locations around the UK and I've heard it mentioned only three or four times, and then by older lesbians. Makes me wonder who the OP is involved with.

Like I said in the OP, being gold star was the issue when I was younger. I'm not claiming it's still a thing.

As a lesbian I have personally felt a constant pressure to conform in one way or another from partners, friends, associates and strangers online.

I can see the trend continuing for young lesbians now. Both TRAs and GC women are using lesbians as pawns to serve their own agenda.

I don't think people of other sexual orientations get this same pressure or receive the level of vitriol that lesbians do if they don't conform.

If other lesbians don't feel this then great, I was interested to know if I was the only one.

Why dose every thing come back to single spaces, give it a rest already!

I strongly suggest reading lessons.

So why do lesbians - or anyone else - have to give a stuff about 'non-binary identities'?

So why do lesbians - or anyone else - have to give a stuff about 'non-binary identities'?

In my experience most non-binary identities started out as lesbian identities so it's natural lesbians would have an opinion one way or another.

Imo ( and as a big generalisation) the over 30s are sad at the demise of young butch lesbians in favour of non-binary identities and the under 30s are fully embracing non-binary identities.

I find it strange that the word lesbian is considered to be so pure and sacred and must not be diluted in any way

All words have to have meaning.

If you cannot define a word it becomes redundant.

Just like the word 'woman' which TRAs and MRAs are trying very hard to 'dilute'.

We needs laws and we need definitions of words in law. That way everything is clear and simple.

If you want to dilute words to make them include other things you are the one causing the problem.

OP what is your definition of the word lesbian?

It should not be difficult for you to answer that.

Thanks for the answer Sappho. I'm struggling to understand however why we should make allowances for people who believe they're neither male nor female. That's fantasy.

Lesbians race two axes of oppression - female and homosexual

Both hetero women and gay men have some structural advantage over lesbians

So lesbian sexuality is policed, threatened and appropriated more than anyone else’s

I’ve even seen married, Hetero women call themselves ‘lesbian’ when their husbands transition in middle age which is...

In my experience a lot of “NB ofabs” and trans guys are lesbians

NBs can be traumatised by growing up female is this misogynistic society and being NB can feel safer ... they are not doing it to annoy anyone

SapphosRock wrote - "Lots of lesbians happily co-exist alongside trans people without bothering one another."

snowblight wrote - "The overwhelming majority I would say, and it's not just co-existing, it's happily enjoying each others company."

Co-existing and happily enjoying each others company are not the same as lesbianism.

I have skimmed the thread; sorry, I don't have the energy to read all of it.

I agree with this:

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

I am beyond furious to have seen some straight women saying, in the run-up to the election, that they'll vote Tory because they want to protest against Labour/Lib Dem trans policies. I am so, so angry - I feel thrown under the bus by other feminists.

I stopped reading FWR because there are so many threads full of straight women congratulating each other for protecting the poor little lesbians from transwomen and their penises. Any time an actual lesbian shows up and dares to say anything that isn't the party line, they are attacked.

It is getting fucking ridiculous.

And yes, I imagine it doesn't make life easier for younger lesbians trying to come out. I don't know where you would go, these days, to talk to feminists without these debates dominating everything.