Any other lesbians sick of all the rules we're supposed to follow?

[SapphosRock]

I am a mature lesbian, been out for 20+ years. There seems to be so many rules at the moment for acceptable conduct for lesbians. Anyone else finding it tiresome?

A few years ago it was the lesbian purists who set the rules:

⁃	We should mistrust and not date bisexual women 
⁃	Ideally we should be gold star and should only date other gold star lesbians (those who’ve never slept with a man)

Now the rules have changed:

⁃	We should not date trans women - if we do that makes us bisexual (see above for views on bisexual women) 
⁃	We should not associate with trans women in lesbian circles 
⁃	We should not date or associate with trans men in lesbian circles 
⁃	We must treat non binary identities with scorn 

More recently:

⁃	We should not associate with other lesbians who do not adhere to the above rules 

Obviously we are getting rules from the other side too:

⁃	We must date trans women or else we’re bigots 
⁃	If our partners wish to transition to male we must be fine with it - even though a partner on testosterone with facial hair isn’t what we signed up for
⁃	Some TRAs even suggest we’re probably transgender ourselves rather than lesbians 

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

It appears these rules are starting to cause havoc IRL. See thread below where a lesbian group has shut down over disagreement over these rules:

Lesbian social group under attack
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3760886-Lesbian-social-group-under-attack

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

It’s hard enough coming out as a lesbian without being judged or ostracised that you’re not doing it right.

Anyone else finding this or is it just me?!

SuperLoudPoppingAction thanks for the lesbian connection mag recommendation! I think it's fine and important for lesbians to discuss these things but actually falling out over it seems very extreme.

Isn't the problem more that the kind of lesbians who define themselves as women who are exclusively attracted to (female) women aren't being allowed any space to organise? They can't organise events without being hounded and harassed, they can't march at Pride, Stonewall refuses to acknowledge that same-sex attraction is valid or should be defended, there aren't any lesbian spaces for them to meet, and dating apps have a deliberate policy of not allowing to filter for people they're interested in.

I'm bisexual and have given up on trying to meet women on dating apps because of all the couples and transwo/men everywhere, it's just too depressing. I really feel for lesbians. Not the trans-inclusive ones, they still have plenty of spaces. But the OG lesbians have had everything taken away.

@BeyondVotesForFlube what's a "runner up ribbon" lesbian?

Later in life

Isn't the problem more that the kind of lesbians who define themselves as women who are exclusively attracted to (female) women aren't being allowed any space to organise? They can't organise events without being hounded and harassed, they can't march at Pride

I think the main 'problem' is lesbians who belong to lesbian groups disagreeing amongst themselves about trans inclusive policies rather than trans women actually trying to force themselves upon said lesbian groups.

Simple. Same sex attraction isn't it
It doesn't have to be complicated at all unless you are trying to promote queer theory.
If you include women who are attracted to men, no matter how they identify, it is no longer same sex attracted

^^ that

Pure and sacred? No, it’s a word like any other with a specific meaning: cat or banana for instance. It can’t be ‘diluted’ any more than cat can be diluted to include dogs or banana can be diluted to include oranges. The word means what it means no matter how much some people wish it didn’t. If lesbian now includes people with penises or those attracted to people with penises then it’s rendered meaningless and we’re going to need another word to describe an exclusively same-sex attracted woman.

Seems to me that the principal problem is the new definitions of words being foisted onto a community, leading to confusion and problems defining that community.

The difference between lesbian and gold star lesbian is not huge as both are female at least. I imagine lesbian groups were still able to meet without there being huge contentious problems, even if some awkward women excluded themselves.

Now males have started to call themselves lesbians, and that changes group dynamics enormously. It is no longer possible to organise a public lesbian event, because almost certainly “male lesbians” will insist on inclusion.

Had those males given themselves an honest name, transbians, for example, then it would have been perfectly straightforward to identify whether an event is a lesbian event or a transbian and lesbian inclusive event.

Similarly on dating websites, lesbians are now faced with sorting through matches with males. Again, an appalling invasion of their space.

So it seems to me, as the mother of a young lesbian, that the world has now been made unnecessarily difficult to navigate, because lesbians have been manoeuvred into allowing males into all their groups, and now must return to organising in secret if the want to hold lesbian events.

Similarly, when a M/F couple where the M has transitioned lead “lesbian” groups, or worse represent them, then lesbians are not represented.

All that is required is that the difference is acknowledged. Then perhaps acceptance would have been possible. Instead the community is now fractured. The selfishness is breathtaking.

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

Get the L Out are a tiny fringe movement with almost zero support in the lesbian community. Most of the people who support them or like them on social media aren't lesbian at all either, just anti-trans. The fact that the march that was held earlier this year attracted less than 40 people when, if you believe transphobes, it was about the biggest threat to lesbians in our lifetime tells you all you need to know. The overwhelming majority of lesbians don't have a problem with trans people and don't believe transphobe lies and propaganda.

It’s almost like there needs to be a space and a language for those women who are only attracted to other women, and another one for women who may also be attracted to men or trans men or transwomen (side stepping the need to debate those terms).

If only there were terms for those two groups? There may of course be times where some of those from each group find they have similar experiences, feelings, needs or so on, and so they can connect on that presumably the same way some lesbians will find they have some experiences or needs in common with gay men. There may be plenty they don’t though, and isn’t that the point of lesbian groups just for lesbians? (God that feels idiotic to write).

Op (and any other lesbians posting) I’m straight, and I appreciate this is your issue not mine. But I also have daughters, and there need to be terms we can use to explain these things to them, if they come home talking about feeling attracted to girls and only girls I’m not going to gas light them and tell them that is exclusionary to transwomen or trans men or anyone else. Language needs to have actual meaning over and above those who identify with those terms. The same way it wouldn’t be ok for my dh to teach our daughters that I’m a ‘cis’ woman (as it’s offensive and erases my reality as a woman) even though being a woman is my experience not his.

I wouldn’t speak on others experiences of being a lesbian or how you feel about that or what you need, but words meaning what they mean is a way wider issue that effects everyone and harms all women. We can’t shut up about that for fear of offending others.

SentimentalKiller what about trans men? Female sex but present as male. Some have transitioned. Lots partnered with lesbian women. Others partnered with straight women. It's not clear to me how these people should be defined.

I was going to post a comment but think AnyOldPrion has just about said it all!

Thanks

I think the main 'problem' is lesbians who belong to lesbian groups disagreeing amongst themselves about trans inclusive policies rather than trans women actually trying to force themselves upon said lesbian groups.

I'll take the word of women who've actually tried to organise women-only spaces on that one, thanks! They don't agree with you.

And WHY can't I get a dating app that filters the bepenised?

It is an heterosexual attraction. It has got nothing to do with lesbianism.

I don't think language works that way. We very often have to choose a word that best expresses our experience because the other option is simply to tell people our life history. "Well, under normal circumstances I am attracted to and date women, but in high school I also had a real thing for Burt Reynolds." That's just not necessary or useful.

In terms of attraction, we tend to be attracted to certain markers that read to us as male or female, and it's not surprising that in certain cases where they appear very ambiguous, or mimic those of the other sex, the result might be someone being attracted where they normally wouldn't. I've certainly known gay men for example who say that sometimes very boyish young women are attractive to them, but it's specifically that similarity to a young male that they are attracted to.

I think the problem that the OP may have been getting at is that while you can say, in a collective sort of way, that "lesbianism doesn't include men" that's almost ideological or definitional. Individuals don't tend to always adhere to those sorts of definitions, they are messier, our experience operates outside definitions. In a mature society I think people generally are able to understand this, that these two elements are related but also in tension, but we aren't a mature society any more. On the one side we have people that want to simply make language wholly subjective, and on the other that all words and terms are completely concrete and define meaning. But neither of those approaches works well without room for the other.

One of the young detransitioners at the recent Manchester event said she didn’t think she could be a lesbian because she wasn’t attracted to transwomen!

We are fucking up young people’s heads so much that teenage girls are choosing to be boys because it’s easier to pretend to be a straight male than it is to be a homosexual woman.

Kantastic I haven't been on a dating website for years but I remember on Gaydar girls there was an option to filter out bisexual women. It seems quite controversial now! Is this still an option?

I absolutely agree the sites should provide a filter for the bepenised.

Anyone who promotes queer theory and includes males in the definition of lesbian is trying to erode lesbians boundaries under the pretext of ‘feeling left out’.

Get the L out is doing great work I would be very suspicious of anyone who was knocking that group.

”on the other that all words and terms are completely concrete and define meaning”

The problem is not that words should be concrete. It’s that there is now a group of women who are no longer allowed to define themselves in any meaningful way.

If it had been accidental, that would be one thing. But this is a deliberate change made by the oppressor group and strictly enforced through threats and bullying tactics.

Get the L out is doing great work I would be very suspicious of anyone who was knocking that group.

Disagree. I believe a lesbian can be gender critical without wanting the L to be removed from the GBT+

Lots of lesbians happily co-exist alongside trans people without bothering one another.

You surely can't be suspicious of every lesbian who used a #LwiththeT hashtag following the protest?!

Surely you don't actually have to take any notice of any of these so called rules,and just live your life being you. without any other nonsense.

It’s almost like there needs to be a space and a language for those women who are only attracted to other women, and another one for women who may also be attracted to men or trans men or transwomen (side stepping the need to debate those terms).

I suppose my first question question would be, how much specificity do people need about these things?

I'm also not convinced that trans people really trigger a sexual response in individuals in a clear cut way - I don't really think there is a "sexuality" that is attracted to trans people. We are attracted to sexed bodies. When someone has modified themselves, through surgery or just more surface things, people respond in the same basic way, they respond to them as male or female as they appear, or in many cases perhaps there is a confusing mix of signals that most don't seem to find very attractive. Personality gets int the mix for a lot of people as well which adds another layer of complexity which can overcome surface appearances, or reinforce them.

It’s that there is now a group of women who are no longer allowed to define themselves in any meaningful way

Well that's not strictly true - sometimes you can get "cisbian" spat at you in the same tone as "terf"...

The problem is not that words should be concrete. It’s that there is now a group of women who are no longer allowed to define themselves in any meaningful way. If it had been accidental, that would be one thing. But this is a deliberate change made by the oppressor group and strictly enforced through threats and bullying tactics.

I think the OP was touching on something though that is a result of this effort to define terms. Individuals almost always vary in how well they fit into these categories, especially over a lifetime.

In an effort to stop people making (stupid IMO) claims that now a heterosexual male is a lesbian and should be treated by all women as such, there is this line drawing. But that is having the effect among individuals of people trying to set rules for individuals. You can't be a real lesbian if you don't accept trans women, or, if you date a transwoman, even once, you aren't a real lesbian.

I took the OP to be finding both of those approaches to be creating problems, arguments, and trying to control individual experience. It seems reasonable to ask if there might be a better way to approach the problem that won't have that effect, and in any case, pretty understandable to find the whole thing off-putting

Surely you don't actually have to take any notice of any of these so called rules,and just live your life being you. without any other nonsense.

Personally yes but I'm not young and impressionable. I would have struggled as a young lesbian in the current climate.