Any other lesbians sick of all the rules we're supposed to follow?

[SapphosRock]

I am a mature lesbian, been out for 20+ years. There seems to be so many rules at the moment for acceptable conduct for lesbians. Anyone else finding it tiresome?

A few years ago it was the lesbian purists who set the rules:

⁃	We should mistrust and not date bisexual women 
⁃	Ideally we should be gold star and should only date other gold star lesbians (those who’ve never slept with a man)

Now the rules have changed:

⁃	We should not date trans women - if we do that makes us bisexual (see above for views on bisexual women) 
⁃	We should not associate with trans women in lesbian circles 
⁃	We should not date or associate with trans men in lesbian circles 
⁃	We must treat non binary identities with scorn 

More recently:

⁃	We should not associate with other lesbians who do not adhere to the above rules 

Obviously we are getting rules from the other side too:

⁃	We must date trans women or else we’re bigots 
⁃	If our partners wish to transition to male we must be fine with it - even though a partner on testosterone with facial hair isn’t what we signed up for
⁃	Some TRAs even suggest we’re probably transgender ourselves rather than lesbians 

We have the ‘Get the L Out’ women telling us we need to disassociate from pride and all the cotton ceiling nonsense from the TRAs.

It appears these rules are starting to cause havoc IRL. See thread below where a lesbian group has shut down over disagreement over these rules:

Lesbian social group under attack
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3760886-Lesbian-social-group-under-attack

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on how lesbians should behave and if it isn’t exactly to their liking then we’re not doing lesbianism right. A lot of these opinions are from men and straight women

Rather pushing young lesbians to pick a side, I wish they could be encouraged to set their own boundaries and not be pressured into following any of the rules of they don’t want to.

It’s hard enough coming out as a lesbian without being judged or ostracised that you’re not doing it right.

Anyone else finding this or is it just me?!

There aren't these rules. It's who you're hanging out with.

I've been out for years and active on the gay scene, not so much recently but a lot when I was younger, also was on my uni's LGBT committee etc. I also am fairly political.

People have different opinions. Yes, the lesbian world is in turmoil at the moment - it's not surprising. I honestly think it's quite a frightening time in a lot of respects. What you're seeing is the backlash.

The experience I have is of being criticised if I wouldn't date trans people who have changed from M to F. I actually went on a blind date with someone who turned out to be trans. She didn't tell me beforehand. Partway through the date she told me she was born as a man. She was a nice lady but no I wouldn't want to date her or have sex with her. She has a penis. Is it my right to refuse that? Some lesbians are saying no. THAT is what I disagree with, and maybe part of what you're referring to, but it's not a rule, it's a difference of opinion.

As a lesbian, you're free to date who you want, hold whatever political opinions you want, and do what you want. So do that.

And no it wasn't me in the guardian. I mentioned it because it may be more common than we realise. We started talking online - as I'd say possibly most women may do these days.

Bisexual women have their own oppression to face, but it's the equivalent of a deaf person claiming to be blind (appreciate that isnt a great analogy but it's kinda hard to find a similar situation!).

If I'm blind and you choose to call your deafness "blindness", that isn't going to help either of us.

Also you have a fair point: how would a man react if partway through the date the woman he was dating revealed he was born male?

*She! Sorry. That was a complete error from typing fast - I do NOT believe it's OK to misgender people (i.e. I call people by whatever he or she they want to be called). I do not want to date someone with a penis, but I would not disrespect someone by calling them he when they are living their life as she. And no, those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Btw, I'll preempt the "what someone else chooses to call themself" doesn't affect you point...

Consider that "bisexual women agree with this dating group being open to both sexes" and "lesbian women agree with this dating group being trans-inclusive" both seem to say different things, when actually they potentially mean the same thing.

I don’t really see any of these rules OP talks about, I’m a lesbian, I’m 29, so not sure that I fall into the “young lesbian” category any more, I have seen some radical MTF trans activists on YouTube pushing their narrative that it’s transphobic for lesbians to not to want to date trans women because they’re trans, something I 100% disagree with. But these are a very small section of the LGBT community and if the comments and reactions are anything to go by the vast majority of viewers strongly disagree with them.

In terms of not dating bisexual women, never heard of this being a rule, it’s definitely a preference and a completely valid one imo. I have dated bisexual women, not had great experiences with them as they all decided they wanted to settle down with men eventually as it was “easier” and because a few were firmly in the closet with no desires to leave. I also felt that there was a bit of disconnect that I’ve never felt with lesbian partners due to us not sharing an attraction for and romantic experiences with men. So my preference now is to date lesbians. Would I date a bisexual woman in the future if myself and my fiancée were to split up? Yes, definitely if she was the right woman, but I do prefer lesbians. I’m not saying in anyway lesbians shouldn’t date bisexuals, but I don’t think it’s wrong to not want to as it’s a preference like any other and often stems from them having numerous bad experiences rather than following some bizarre set of “rules”.

Just trying to get my head around this.

You're a radical feminist who doesn't have any issues with Pride and I can't think of a single radfem lesbian I know who would say that.

And then the Anna/ Guardian example. You don't seem to take into account that at the age of 23 and in her first job, Anna couldn't/ wouldn't say that she didn't like what the Guardian had done to her even if she was traumatised by being paired with a person with a penis. If she'd complained, imagine what the TRAs would have done to her. And you don't wonder about the Guardian's hypocrisy in sending a lesbian on a blind date with a transwoman while it would never pair a straight man with a transwoman on a blind date for fear of the outcome. You don't see, as a radfem, the sexism and hypocrisy and contempt for women inherent in all that? You just see that Anna announced on social media that she was fine with it and that's that and you're embarrassed to have felt angry about her situation? You don't see that it was a bigger issue?

The Pride thing is a biggie for me. You really don't notice any issues as a radical feminist attending Pride and being faced with wall-to-wall male sexuality, commercialism and consumerism? Or you see it but it doesn't bother you?

I suspect you're actually an intersectional feminist and that's why you haven't felt you fitted in in radfem circles. Something's not adding up.

What are the issues with Pride? Genuine question. Male sexuality? As a lesbian I have no issue with gay male sexuality, lesbians are massively outnumbered by gay men, so it’s going to be more visible, but there’s plenty of female sexuality at Pride. Consumerism and commercialism? I agree that there an issue with businesses using Pride as an advertisement, but doing nothing to help the LGBT community. However, major brands and companies making Pride visible to the masses in a positive way in itself is helping LGBT people and promoting acceptance.

Pride is becoming more about this:

metro.co.uk/2017/03/29/violet-fenn-human-pups-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-fetish-for-dressing-up-in-latex-puppy-suits-6413633/

than your common or garden homosexuals. People can have their fetishes. But don't bring it into the public domain and make me part of it.

I carefully chose a link to make my point without being especially unsafe for work. There's plenty out there which would have illustrated my point more unpleasantly.

Yes, it's now much more about fetish and breaking sexual boundaries and I think there's a danger of a backlash against gay rights if what the public remembers about Pride is the pups and gimp masks and bare bottoms and drag queens and thinks that's what LGBT is about. Particularly if it turns out that under the masks and costumes there are people you really don't want your children to encounter.

There was a time – you probably have to be over 50 to remember – when Pride was LGB, with the L well-represented and involved, and very little commercialism. There were no pups, very little dressing up, just ordinary people parading to show the world that they existed, not their fetishes.

Now anybody and everybody has grabbed the rainbow colours and uses them to sell more biscuits/ insurance etc and it's lost any meaning it did have. You may think that because it's everywhere it's more powerful, I think that because it's everywhere it's just become diluted.

And of course Pride has embraced the T very visibly and made it clear that terfs aren't welcome, so it's not a place GC lesbians feel welcome.

And then there's the fact that most of the entertainment is male-focussed and quite a lot of the things that go one are pretty misogynistic. Not least all the drag queens. One year some women I knew got onto the committee of a Pride event and insisted on a lesbian tent in which there were lesbian performers and workshops for lesbian women, advice sessions for lesbians and so on. It was busy and successful and the women loved it but because women don't drink as much alcohol or spend as much money as men it wasn't continued the next year.

These are all feminist issues and I'm really surprised that someone on a feminist/ women's rights board hasn't identified them for themselves. Can you be a feminist and not have major issues with Pride?

Perhaps this person doesn't really know what a radical feminist is?

Allow me: if the feminism pleases men in any way then it isn't radical.

Simps.

thatdamnwoman

Re the Guardian article. You basically wrote everything I wrote in my post and said I didn't say it of course I see the hypocrisy and sexism from the Guardian - that's why I used it as an example. It was shitty of them to put a woman in that position.

Re Pride, no I have no issues with male sexuality. Why would I? Pride is one of the few times when women are not objectified. Yes it is male dominated but there are more gay men than women so that's natural. There's always been women's spaces at Pride, from the women's dance tents to the poetry yoga classes and meditation. There's even family areas. One of the best things about Pride is it caters for everyone.

I agree it has got very commercial and it's more of a party for straight people than a protest from LGBT people but that's a separate issue.

Like I said before the animosity between lesbians and trans people at recent Pride events is a shame. The two groups used to rub along together just fine and I much preferred it that way.

I see you picked up on the discussion of Pride but have carefully stepped around the discussion about fetishes. Instead you use weasel wording like "male sexuality".

I don't think you're arguing in good faith.

Whilst it seems tricky to get accurate estimates, it seems ( from a quick internet search) that there are roughly equal numbers of gay and lesbian. In some countries it seems that women are slightly more likely to identify as bi rather than lesbian, but the statement below about there being far more gay men than lesbian women appears incorrect

nauticant There's dykes on bikes with leather fetishes at Pride too. It's not just men.

But I am guessing that the ratio of male to female is high

I find it strange that the word lesbian is considered to be so pure and sacred and must not be diluted in any way.

Do you actually need someone to explain why words cannot mean both what they represent and the opposite of what they represent? Srsly?

Other words that should be considered to only mean what they mean.

Trousers, imagine asking for trousers for Christmas and getting a skirt
Christmas tree. I think eyebrows would be raised is someone brought an bare rooted apple tree.
Chair, imagine telling someone there's a chair behind you, they sit , only to discover the word chair means unturned bucket to you

As a lesbian, you're free to date who you want, hold whatever political opinions you want, and do what you want. So do that.

If only! Every woman and her dog has an opinion it seems.

No, they are just saying that if you fancy male bodied people, or that your sexual attraction is based on say gender identities rather than someone's sex , then the word lesbian doesn't actually describe you at all. Nothing more nothing less.

Well there's two of us sat here, which is the woman and which is the dog?

Probably sounds offensive (cause y'know 'Bitch') but not what I meant! Either way, both of us know what a lesbian is.

To reiterate - again - the point is if words can mean anything, how does anyone know what anyone is talking about?

Not sure where people are getting their stats from, but a quick google find more than double the amount of men who identify as gay compared to women and only 0.2% more female bisexuals than male in the UK. So obviously if there are over double the amount of gay and bisexual men than there are women they are going to be more visible and there will be more events catered to them.

I regularly go to Pride and have only seen one or two “pups” and owners out of the thousands of people who attend, so it’s hardly becoming a fetish event. Drags queens being sexist or for men, I disagree on both, although the former is a matter of opinion and can definitely be debated, but plenty of women love drag queens, myself included, and it is becoming very mainstream now. In regards to what straight people see of Pride and associate with LGBT people, Pride is an event where LGBT people can celebrate and feel comfortable expressing themselves and if any allies want to attend and join in that’s great. So as a lesbian I really couldn’t give two hoots if some closed minded heterosexual sees drag queens or a few guys in fetish gear and decide to judge the whole of the LGBT community by that. We don’t need start catering Pride to straight people and restricting what people can wear so that they find us more “palatable”.

I think it depends on the location. Eldest stopped going in Seattle because it became all about the fetishes.
I understand puppy players luring children has become a problem in some locations in the UK.