Call to action for Bravissimo customers

[Itsallgonetoofar]

So any woman with large boobs quickly learn she a subset of men are obsessed and fetishise large breasts. Any woman without personal experience can confirm this by a quick look at a porn site.

So Bravissimo is loved by many of us. Up until now it's largely been a male free zone staffed by helpful women who are almost always with plenty of norkage themselves so they understand their customers challenges. Joanni Walshe's article in the Sun shows that is changing as they are saying they will welcome transgender customers.

I contacted customer services online to check, got a message that it's no time al all the case and if I left my phone number someone would ring me! Somewhat to my surprise they did, nice young woman spent 30mins telling me in shocked terms that of course they would never let a man in Bravissimo changing rooms but also explained that if someone's was 'on a journey to being a woman' they'd would be welcome. There was much talk of the 'woman on a journey' and of course they would never do anything that would lead to anyone being uncomfortable but that's even though I would be uncomfortable I was to be nice and kind to this person on a journey.

Several things struck me,

• they've clearly were concerned about the numbers of customers getting in touch
• the person I spoke to was very ignorant about transwomen, trans activism and woefully naive
• they have give no thought to the dangers of hidden cameras being placed in their changing rooms and if we think about those men with a large boob fetish I think that is a real danger not envy

@Namechangeyay

What! Men sales assistants? Where?

XY persons shouldn't be in the changing rooms of women's underwear shops and departments - for the benefit of the sales staff and other customers. If some XY persons have body modifications that require wearing bras, they will need to start keeping stock in underwear shops and departments for XY persons.

so basically you just want trans women to stay indoors and never leave their homes?

And there we go, with the usual ridiculous leap of illogicality . Like the ‘literally killing TWs ‘ by daring to question any assertion by them. Ffs.

@Namechangeyay - I can honestly say I have never encountered a make member of staff in a bravissimo store. Where did you see them?

Male, not make!

Haven't RTFT yet, but glancing over it shows a lot of derailing going on.

To the person who suggested that the female staff might place hidden cameras: women commit less than 2% of sexual offences. Women very seldom commit acts of non-consensual voyeurism, it's pretty much exclusively a male crime. Also, stop smearing lesbians as sexual predators. It's really homophobic and misogynistic.

We already know that males will try on ladies clothes, including knickers, without keeping their own underwear on. These males get sexually aroused doing this. We already know from a recent Twitterer that sometimes he leaves a sticky patch on the floor; I think we can all guess what the sticky patch is made of.

Posie once asked "does my daughter have the right to use a changing room without seeing an adult penis?"

I want to ask the following:

1. Do women and girls have the right to use a changing room (cubicled or open) without being unwilling or unwitting participants in a male of any gender identity's fetish?
2. Do women and girls have the right to purchase knickers that have not been worn next to the skin by someone else?
3. Do women and girls have the right to purchase clothing uncontaminated with semen or precum?
4. Do bra fitters have the right to work without being part of a male's fetish?
5. Do bra fitters have the right not to be prostituted by their employers, which is what happens when the fitters are required to fit bras for fetishistic males?
6. Do bra fitters have the right to safety from sexual assault at work, which is a clear risk if they are required to work alone in a confined locked space with a fetishistic male?

If you give a shit about women and girls, the answer to all the above is "yes". Bravissimo, M&S, and anyone else doing bra fittings need to be able to say what they are doing to protect women and girls' rights, including the rights of their staff.

women commit less than 2% of sexual offences.

Less than 3%, it's slightly over 2%. Doesn't alter the reality that women are much less likely to sexually assault you than men are.

Now that women are losing their right to have a changing room free from males, it’s only a matter of time before males will start demanding to have the right to be bra fitters. There is already one transwoman bra fitter, so where does the line get drawn?

Debenhams is still safe changing room wise right?
Their Gorgeous range is v good and a lot cheaper than Bravissimo!

Maybe the transwoman bra fitter could fit bras for other transwomen. No one's rights would be compromised and the fitter's lived experience of being a male bra-wearer could be used to benefit the fittees.

I'm being serious here: one of the reasons why I like Bravissimo is because so many of their staff are top-heavy and fit from that lived experience.

That thing I keep saying about understanding difference being so much more helpful than ignoring it.

Because all men trying out bras are out to get you?
Because no woman ever is going to make you feel uncomfortable while trying for bras?

Why do they always do this? Is it that fucking impossible to believe that men treat women differently from how women treat each other? That women have a lifetime of experiencing this? Why do they spout this bullshit again and again and again, is it really all they have?

Maybe the transwoman bra fitter could fit bras for other transwomen.

Having to travel for hours to be fitted is a pain, so this might work well as a nationwide travelling service. The fitter could set up pop-up lingerie fitting parlours in hotel suites or vacant shops for a few days at a time. Bras need to be replaced twice per year so as long as the fitter returned every six months, transwomen could keep themselves in bras easily. The bras stocked could be designed and made to suit male bodies, rather than being bras designed and made for female bodies.

Because all men trying out bras are out to get you?

Some are, and "some" is enough to be worried.

Because no woman ever is going to make you feel uncomfortable while trying for bras?

She might, but my discomfort is limited because no female can escalate harassment to rape.

Which part of "males can escalate sexual harassment to rape and leave us pregnant, females can't" do you fail to understand?

quickkimchi you're absolutely right there is nothing in my post about a boycott but I do state my boundaries and urge other customers that would be uncomfortable to tell the company they would be uncomfortable. I have reasons for my boundaries, posters demanding to know if there have ever been problems have no right to expect women to share that publicly to satisfy their demands for evidence.

Lweji delighted to hear that if we do later decide there is sufficient cause to boycott you'll be with us

I had my follow up phone call with customer services just before Christmas. It does seem as though they are trying to use separate spaces / fitting times for males where they can. They certainly respond better to these complaints than M&S etc. I really wish they would use the single sex exemptions however.

I expect shops like Bravissimo have been dealing with male customers of both the benign kind and the unsavoury for a long time. Declining to respond in writing is very clever, it's more personal to speak with someone and it also means what you say can't be easily reproduced.
In my youth I worked in a shoe shop and came across quite a few men buying high heeled shoes for themselves. One or two tried to chat to me about how lovely they found wearing them (which I now see this conversation in a slightly different light..) but others were just buying shoes.
As a fairly typical teenager I wasn't really listening very hard to anyone and it didn't bother or upset me.
I imagine Bravissimo are fairly clued up about their customers and provided everyone is safe and happy with their arrangements then I doubt this is anything new for them.
The change where you want, or poorly designed changing areas are ones where women will be at risk from pervy men.

One or two tried to chat to me about how lovely they found wearing them (which I now see this conversation in a slightly different light..)

This is a recurring theme, none of us knew then but we do now.

It seems there are many people out there still not informed about this.

Just be kind? What rubbish.

This shitstorm is being very unkind to women

I remember going into a charity shop to and hearing the rage from three older female assistants who'd finally had enough of the local creep going in to try on women's clothes and engaging them in convos about his vagina.