Call to action for Bravissimo customers

[Itsallgonetoofar]

So any woman with large boobs quickly learn she a subset of men are obsessed and fetishise large breasts. Any woman without personal experience can confirm this by a quick look at a porn site.

So Bravissimo is loved by many of us. Up until now it's largely been a male free zone staffed by helpful women who are almost always with plenty of norkage themselves so they understand their customers challenges. Joanni Walshe's article in the Sun shows that is changing as they are saying they will welcome transgender customers.

I contacted customer services online to check, got a message that it's no time al all the case and if I left my phone number someone would ring me! Somewhat to my surprise they did, nice young woman spent 30mins telling me in shocked terms that of course they would never let a man in Bravissimo changing rooms but also explained that if someone's was 'on a journey to being a woman' they'd would be welcome. There was much talk of the 'woman on a journey' and of course they would never do anything that would lead to anyone being uncomfortable but that's even though I would be uncomfortable I was to be nice and kind to this person on a journey.

Several things struck me,

• they've clearly were concerned about the numbers of customers getting in touch
• the person I spoke to was very ignorant about transwomen, trans activism and woefully naive
• they have give no thought to the dangers of hidden cameras being placed in their changing rooms and if we think about those men with a large boob fetish I think that is a real danger not envy

Bravissimo has full length lockable doors and a manned changing room. Of course they cannot discriminate if a male born person wishes to try on clothes. It's this thread that's being discriminatory. There is no safety risk unlike changing rooms in leisure centres that are not supervised and have open changing.

this, totally. From what is being said upthread, they are well aware of the issues and trying to deal as best they can. Bits of this thread - and lord knows I am the last person to say this - are bordering on transphobic.

I also trust them enough to be well staffed enough to spot something odd appearing in their changing rooms, fwiw.

I think the separate fitting room is an acceptable compromise in these situations. M&S/JL might like to take note.

Still concerned for the staff though. #waxmyballs #touchmyboobs

It doesn't sound like that person feels particularly guilty.

@artisanparsnips I think you're underestimating the lengths which males have gone to in order to have access to women in their undies and women's changing rooms.

The issue is, they don't have to be trans to get that access. Popping on a dress for half an hour in order to do this is small fry compared to what some men have done, so how do you tell the genuine ones from the others?

But Bravissimo have lockable changing rooms, the assistants come in to you - always after knocking - and as far as possible Bravissimo is providing a third space. I cannot see that there is any access under these scenarios.

I agree there are huge problems - and I am boycotting M&S - but I think there also has to be some kind of inclusion rather than an across the board revulsion. I do actually believe in trans rights generally. People can do what they like as long as it doesn't frighten young children and the horses. But where they conflict with women's rights, and this is ignored, this is when I rage.

Also, if they just pop on a dress for half an hour, realistically, they're not going to have much use for Bravissimo. D cup and above, and I think the staff are more than able to point that out.

Kristina, sounds like they may have come up with an 8nclusive solution to a targeted problem?

I agree. The woman I spoke to was very switched on about the possible issues and had a practical solution. They do have a risk assessment process for the staff , which she explained to me in general terms . I don’t know if that’s for their store or company wide.

I think she mentioned about the men wanting to come into the women’s changing room to see their partners to demonstrate that they are used to male bodied people trying to come into the changing rooms and are used to politely saying no.

Even though the changing rooms have lockable doors, they are aware that women are coming in and out just wearing gowns, opening the cubicle doors to the staff while just wearing a bra on top, or they perhaps come out of the fitting room just wearing a bra to change a size etc. She said it’s common for women to see a bra on someone else and ask to try it etc.

So the whole area needs to be women only, not just the cubicle. Women need to feel safe and comfortable to try on bras, as most of us know. Personally I don’t find it fun at all - for me it’s stressful and sometimes uncomfortable.

They get that, it’s an important part of how they work and they would be foolish to lose that.

Personally I don’t have a problem with male bodied customers being on a different floor in a separate changing area from me. And I’m glad to hear that they have procedures in place to minimise the risk to staff.

The manager Kristina spoke to seems well aware of the various issues, and has made a sensible and practical policy to deal with it. This is what Bravissimo head office should be saying to everyone. The issue is not having the courage to make this a public policy.

I've been buying from them for almost as long as they've been around probably about 20 years! (my oldest order on their site is from 2006 - but by the address I know I was buying from them way before that - via a lovely catalogue they used to send me).

Mind you, I went in their westfield shop on a flying visit through London the other month, and was very disappointed - I was hoping to be able to see and buy off the shelf, but all the bigger stuff you still had to order.

I was needing a new bra order, but I'm going to hold off and see if they double down or go with their sensible managers. There's still life in the old bras yet :D

I also believe in trans rights.
I pointed out that men having access to women's changing rooms is the issue. One Bravissimo has another room but unless they all have one, then cameras could be installed. Women have a right to be concerned about this and being concerned about men with ulterior motives is not trans phobic, trans people aren't even the ones that women are mainly concerned about!
There is plenty of evidence of men doing these things and any man can say he is on a journey to becoming a woman and it mean anything.
I also think you're being deliberately obtuse regards my pop a dress on comment. You know it would require some padding which is easily done.

@artisanparsnips

Yup, a cross-dressing man with ‘chicken fillets’. As someone said upthread, #waxmyballs #touchmyboobs. This policy is open to so much abuse I honestly don’t think they’ve thought it through. Or they care more about their woke image than they do the safety and comfort of their staff and female customers.

Aw bollocks. Was already half out the door after traipsing to Brighton and they didn't have my size in most of the styles i wanted.
Honestly is all just so depressing.

But where they conflict with women's rights, and this is ignored, this is when I rage.

Unless they're low paid shop assistants in Bravissimo, presumably?

As I have mentioned on other threads, when I was young and worked in a shop for a while, I had a man with a fetish try on some things, including, it turned out, a semi-transparent nightdress. He beckoned me into the changing cubicle, where I was faced with him wearing nothing at all but the nightie and his specs. He was deliberately flashing/pointing his erection at me and asking me what I thought of how he looked.
I would hazard a guess that the as the numbers of post-op transsexuals are vanishingly small, Bravissimo are far more likely to get a man like the one above in their changing rooms.
A separate changing room on a different floor I can live with, that seems reasonable, for transsexuals who want to wear a bra, but there is still the serious issue of a female staff member having to fit a bra onto a male, who could well be an autogynephile with breast implants and a penis, or a fetishist. There is no way for a woman working in Bravissimo to tell these people apart. Having to fit a bra onto someone with a stiffy ? How can a shop expect their staff to do that ?

the possibility of hidden cameras is a bit worrying.

These are some of the thousands of covert camera options I picked off ebay, costing just a few pounds. One of them makes a point about being wifi enabled.

The chances they will go completely unnoticed by anyone are incredibly high, because they were designed that way.

@SirVixofVixHall, that must have been horrible and scary, I'm sorry.

Can someone link to the article OP is referring to please?

Thanks Gangrenethatmightwork .
Yes, frightening and horrible, I went to get someone from a next door shop, but the man made a swift exit. The awful thing is that I was embarrassed. It wasn’t me sexually harassing young women, yet I felt embarrassed . I was 21 ish, the man late fifties.

You seem to be advocating for complete bans on trans women going into shops. That’s unfair.

This.

The reported approach by a Bravissimo shop sounds very sensible. I'm sure they've had to deal with these issues for years and it's not a new one.

This type of thread is very much trigger happy

Fuck sake - genuinely the only high street brand that goes up to my size. Anyone got the number for Govan Shipyard? Think I’ll need a custom build.

' a manned changing room.'

Great turn off phrase was it deliberate

Turn of phrase.

Can some posters really see no problem with a young assistant having to be in a sturdy locked room with a male person and her job is to put her hands on him.

Super transphobic uh huh

@SirVixofVixHall that's what they rely on, youbeing embarrassed. And it's a reaction they enjoy, I'm afraid. I just got your username, love it.
I'm going to ignore the NAMALT and NATWALT arguments on FWR from now on, I'm sick to death of these people accusing everyone else of being transphbic in an attempt to derail the thread.
The worst bit is that it works, women here oh so patiently explain its not trans phobia and these people keep coming back with the same old shit until the thread is derailed.

'a Bravissimo shop sounds very sensible'

A shop which does indeed sound sensible.
I'll eat my bra if every single shop has this set up though.