Call to action for Bravissimo customers

[Itsallgonetoofar]

So any woman with large boobs quickly learn she a subset of men are obsessed and fetishise large breasts. Any woman without personal experience can confirm this by a quick look at a porn site.

So Bravissimo is loved by many of us. Up until now it's largely been a male free zone staffed by helpful women who are almost always with plenty of norkage themselves so they understand their customers challenges. Joanni Walshe's article in the Sun shows that is changing as they are saying they will welcome transgender customers.

I contacted customer services online to check, got a message that it's no time al all the case and if I left my phone number someone would ring me! Somewhat to my surprise they did, nice young woman spent 30mins telling me in shocked terms that of course they would never let a man in Bravissimo changing rooms but also explained that if someone's was 'on a journey to being a woman' they'd would be welcome. There was much talk of the 'woman on a journey' and of course they would never do anything that would lead to anyone being uncomfortable but that's even though I would be uncomfortable I was to be nice and kind to this person on a journey.

Several things struck me,

• they've clearly were concerned about the numbers of customers getting in touch
• the person I spoke to was very ignorant about transwomen, trans activism and woefully naive
• they have give no thought to the dangers of hidden cameras being placed in their changing rooms and if we think about those men with a large boob fetish I think that is a real danger not envy

I don’t think the thread is “transphobic” , I think women have had enough. Where a changing room has a “women” sign, that is who it should be for, women and girls, female people.
Have Bravissimo made an actual statement to say that yes, they have fitted males with bras, but on a different floor in a completely separate room ? Because otherwise I am not sure I believe them, frankly.

The problem is not every shop is going to be the same. In my local branch all the fitting rooms are in one area, on the same floor.
So although the manager a PP spoke to was switched on and had a good system, not all shop layouts are going to work like this surely?

@KristinaM Was that first (Ealing Broadway) Bravissimo? It sounds like it, and is very reassuring if so. I don’t mind travelling further to get to a branch with what is, essentially, a third space (which is all I want - though I take others’ points about safeguarding the shop assistants, and it sounds like the switched-on manager is doing that, too).

Women don’t want male bodied people with fake breasts or chicken fillets in female changing rooms, so therefore we’re transphobic. Everything that females discuss is transphobic according to the TRAs, periods, breast cancer, breast feeding, pregnancy, knickers, tampons, sanitary pads, toilets, changing rooms, girl guilds, protection of children, gametes, physical differences between women and men in sport, and on and on and on. I really don’t give a shit what people think of me any more. I want women’s spaces to remain male free. I want to be able to take my adult child with SNs into a changing rooms and talk her through every step of trying on a bra.

clip it at the front, turn it around, put the straps over your shoulders, now bend over and put your hand in there to lift your boob so it’s properly in the bra, now do the same with the other one. Does that feel ok? Does it feel very tight around you? Do your boobs feel ok or do they feel a bit squished? Good girl, you’re doing really well

...without a male, no matter how they feel about themselves or describe themselves, outside the cubicle or in the cubicle next door. When we leave the cubicle there is quite often another woman waiting and in the majority of cases they smile kindly at my wee girl. I don’t want her walking out with me to find a man looking at her. No! Just fucking no!

It can't be a new thing though. We've had transwomen in changing rooms before, I'm sure. Or the shops have had to deal with them several times before too.
It just seems that there's this more recent backlash or increased awareness.

It used to be such a tiny number of transsexual people though. Stonewall has now “empowered” cross dressers, fetishists, any bloke who likes to be called Mary on Sundays etc by insisting that all these people are “transgender” and are entitled to use whatever space they feel “comfortable “ in.
So although one might come across a transsexual, as I did many years ago in the John Lewis changing rooms, this would be a rare occurrence as there have never been very many.

How many do we normally encounter, though?
I'm not in the UK, granted, (although a Bravissimo customer) but I've never spotted one, and we have similar legislation regarding gender.

Lweji well, to my mind, the backlash has come about because this is no longer about women tolerating a tiny handful of genuinely dysphoric people in their changing rooms and toilets out of politeness/embarrassment, as used to be the case in the old days. I'm sure we can all call to mind having seen someone who is obviously trans at the washbasins or going into a cubicle in the fitting rooms, and turning a blind eye because they were trying to go about their business as inobtrusively as possible and it would have felt rude or unkind to say anything to them.

Now, when shops are opening up their formerly single-sex changing rooms to anyone who feels "more comfortable" in there, and there's seemingly not even a requirement for someone to attempt to "pass" as female, women are getting sick of it. It's taking away our ability to spot someone who's obviously just a pervy man and tell him to fuck off out of the ladies' loo, because he might say he identifies as a woman that day and we could then get into trouble for discrimination.

And yes, clothes shops are all too used to dealing with men trying to get into the women's changing areas. I used to work in a lingerie department and we would often get men wanting to try on bras (it was always "I have to wear drag for a stag night" btw). They would be told they had to take it two floors down to the men's changing rooms if they really wanted to try it on, at which point they all lost interest. There was also a transwoman who used to come in first thing after we opened and would try things on while it was quiet, but she was always clear on the fact that she would only use the changing rooms if they were otherwise empty.

I'm not in the UK, granted, (although a Bravissimo customer) but I've never spotted one, and we have similar legislation regarding gender.

That’s probably the difference between your experiences and the fears of women in the UK. There is a larger group of TRAs and the male entitlement is practically screaming from them. The Stonewall umbrella, as well as including genuine transsexuals, also includes, cross dressers, adult nappy wearers, AGP, who are fighting tooth and nail for access to female spaces.

Bravissimo does fit differently to other places, it is very much by look and feel and you do really need to be fitted , well I always have. It is a very specialist shop.

M&S lady measured over my daughter's clothes last time. Bravissimo I would say was different. Much more personal fittings.

And I don't know how we can be fair to women and transwomen in that situation. If staff are comfortable, then that's fine, but what if a fitter wasn't comfortable? Is that transphobic?

I'm aware from Penis News that there's underwear providers specifically for transwomen. Dunno, is that apartheid? Or a compromise, especially given such underwear provides for the difference in bodies?

I also worry that someone working in Bravissimo would not feel that they could refuse to fit someone male, in case they lost their job.

A shop which does indeed sound sensible
I'll eat my bra if every single shop has this set up though
Yup me too.

Bet they dont.

Not every store has a separate fitting room and at least one store still has curtains for fitting rooms by the clothes. I asked the woman I spoke to one the phone whether it would be possible I could be in a changing room and hear a deep voiced transwoman in the next cubicle and she confirmed that yes that was possible.

I see I had a post deleted, I did not use any banned terms or break any of the documented rules I just stated reality but let's try again with more convoluted language.

As every customer of Bravissimo knows they are not a general bra shop, they cater to a subset of women with a larger than usual cup size. A transwoman would have to have large implants to require bras from Bravissimo

Not every store has a separate fitting room and at least one store still has curtains for fitting rooms by the clothes

And there I was just choosing a bra to eat 😱
Not really.

Have Bravissimo made an actual statement to say that yes, they have fitted males with bras, but on a different floor in a completely separate room ? Because otherwise I am not sure I believe them, frankly
I suggested to the cs woman I spoke too that this should be done and she said she would pass this on. She told me that they 'know their customers really well' and a transwoman would be directed to the seperate area.

At least in M&S there are usually staff or members of the public around. Or not far away if you needed help
Not in my recent experience. No staff to be seen let alone anywhere near changing rooms. Still at least it gave me the chance to do some stickering

It is a while since I went into the store, as the nearest one to me is a two and a half hour drive away, but I am pretty sure there was only one changing room. I will check next time I am there.

I try not to get too worked up about the changing room stuff, but for fuck's sake. I shop at Bravissimo because I don't have much fucking choice because my boobs are naturally fricking enormous and I hate trying on bras at the best of times.

Some staff are actually very young yet well-endowed and I imagine they could feel totally out of their depth and uncomfortable if confronted with a middle-aged man demanding help, especially as some stores are quite small with the changing upstairs or in the basement.

I'd like to reassure the posters who are offended by my concern for my privacy and dignity whilst standing in a changing room half naked that in my conversation with Bravissimo I did make some suggestions on how they could accommodate transwomen customers needing their particular products whilst continuing to provide privacy and dignity to their female customers.

It will ultimately be up to Bravissimo what they do, and up to us as customers how we respond.

But we absolutely need to tell them if we have any concerns. They have the record of our purchases, Bravissimo more than almost any other store knows how much our business is worth.

Whoever mentioned Rigby and Peller, they’ll go next. They’ll all go.

Time to figure out how to make my own bra...!

So what are you actually suggesting now, that trans women shouldn’t be allowed to buy bras from high street bra shops?

@Fieldofgreycorn No that’s ridiculous. They should just use the changing rooms that are appropriate for their sex.

Can I just add that PERSONALLY I wouldn’t have a problem with post-surgery transsexuals, it’s this new breed of aggressive, entitled cross-dressers who are heterosexual and don’t transition that terrify me.