It's official, Marks and Spencer have fallen

[MrsSnippyPants]

I know we have 'known' this for a while, but this is now their official response. How many 'inappropriate' incidents will be necessary before they see sense?

#BoycottM&S

By the way,,stop using lesbians as your gotcha. It’s disgustingly homophobic.

I feel let down by M&S. I spend a lot there over a year, and I have been a loyal customer because I didn’t want them to go under. Dd had a bra fitting there a year ago, at 13, and the assistant (like all the staff locally) was absolutely lovely. Very sensitive and kind.
There is no way dd would have gone in if it had been unisex, and no way I would have taken her.
Women do not want mixed sex changing rooms etc. Very, very few of their customers are going to be happy about this. They are relying on people either not knowing, which is pretty disgusting when you think of all the women who have been assaulted by men. Or women being nice and giving up space.
I will really miss M&S, but I can’t shop there if they treat women like this.

Trans people can try on clothes in the changing room of the sex they were born with.

No need to use the word gender at all.

To the posters asking about other shops, Debenhams (or their representative on Twitter) said they DO allow men (who "present" as women) in women's changing rooms. I read it yesterday (copied and pasted) on Jean Hatchet's Twitter

Am I reading this correctly? You are all going to boycott M&S because they allow trans people to use the gender changing room they identify with?

You're reading incorrectly. M&S are allowing men to access female changing rooms if that's what makes them feel comfortable. That's what we're objecting to.

It’s 2019. If I am reading your comments correctly I am frankly stunned. Should lesbians be forced out too?

We're not stunned that you're trying to compare MTF trans to lesbians though. They. Are. Not. The. Same.

Nobody is boycotting because of 'trans' people. They are boycotting because of MALE people regardless of whether those male people believe in unsubstantiated 'gender identities' or not.

Lesbians are FEMALE. No woman objects to sharing changing facilities with other women. Comparing lesbians to men is homophobic. Stop it.

Am I reading this correctly? You are all going to boycott M&S because they allow trans people to use the gender changing room they identify with?
Yep

Nobody is boycotting because of 'trans' people. They are boycotting because of MALE people regardless of whether those male people believe in unsubstantiated 'gender identities' or no

Well, that's just a roundabout the houses way of saying yes, people are boycotting because of transpeople being welcome in changing rooms, isn't it?

Do you think we're bigoted because we don't want to meet that man I linked to upthread in the lingerie changing rooms, with his sissification fantasies which include unwilling women?

I should have said transwomen not transpeople.

No, XX trans people being FEMALE are welcome in the women's.

It is MALE people, trans or otherwise, that are the problem.

Changing rooms are segregated by SEX, as determined at conception and observed at birth, for the very good reason that MALE people are a danger to female people. MALE people who identify as trans commit crimes at the same rate as other men, violent crimes at the same rate as other men and sexual crimes at the same rate as other men.

The desire for single sex spaces is not bigoted. It's the preference of the vast majority of people when it comes to spaces where they'll be taking their clothes off around strangers.

The idea that it would be in any way appropriate to exclude women from the women's fitting rooms because they're lesbians, otoh, actually is bigoted. It's interesting that so many trans advocates don't seem to think lesbians are women.

Lesbians are not a risk to other women. It isn’t lesbians raping, killing, assaulting, spying on and covertly filming women - I think you will find that is male people, however they “identify”.

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

And I agree with prodigalkitten, it is interesting how many trans advocates seem to see lesbians as male.

What about FTM trans using the men’s, that’s ok is it? Or women in bars using men’s toilets because there is a big queue?

If the men feel uncomfortable with women/FTM in their changing rooms/toilets, that's their fight to deal with.

This isn't a trans issue. M&S are saying ANY man can access the changing rooms in the women's and lingerie departments if they feel more comfortable with. Can you not see how this is open to abuse and there are no safeguarding measures in place to protect women and girls? Or why many females might be uncomfortable with this?

Instead of coming on here attacking women for being concerned for their safety, why not spend some time reading the reasons WHY women are concerned, rather than just spouting off the bigotry and transphobe crap.

Are you actually kidding calling me homophobic because I mentioned lesbians?

Yes. Absolutely. Lesbians are adult human females and are welcome to share with us, the other adult human females. Since women are fare less likely to perve, molest or harm other females, than men then they’re very welcome. Comparing lesbians to straight male bodied people is homophobic.

The desire for single sex spaces is not bigoted
And we simply want the law to remain as it is.
No change to single sex spaces.

Right, my email has now been sent. Waiting for the stock response...

Subject: Safeguarding females - your fitting room policy

Dear Steve

I am deeply concerned and disappointed at M&S lack of respect and safety for women and girls by allowing men to access the fitting rooms that are in the women’s clothing and lingerie departments.

There are a number of points I would like clarifying and would appreciate a response to each of these as the twitter reply has left many unanswered questions.

1. Are all your fitting rooms designated mixed sex?

1. Are your mixed sex fitting rooms labelled as such, so women and girls can make an informed decision whether to share the fitting rooms with men?

1. If the fitting rooms are not labelled as mixed sex, how will women and girls know they are sharing the fitting rooms with men?

4.“M&S fitting rooms have lockable cubicles designed to protect each customers privacy”
Please can you tell me how the cubicle is designed to stop predatory males peeping over / under / through gaps in the cubicles, and how women and girls using the accessible cubicles with curtains will be protected (which actually means not all of your cubicles are lockable)?

1. “we strive to be inclusive and therefore, we allow customers the choice of which fitting room they feel comfortable to use, in respect of how they identify themselves”

Please can you advise how you are striving to be inclusive of women and girls who are NOT comfortable with men using the women’s fitting rooms?

1. If a woman or young girl is not comfortable using a mixed sex fitting room, then what options can your stores give her to make her feel comfortable?

1. “This is an approach other retailers and leisure facilities have also adopted”

An approach which has seen an increase of attacks on women (sources below). Presumably you came across this when you did your risk assessment on this new policy, so please can you advise what preventative actions you have put in place to mitigate the risk of women and children being attacked by predatory males in your mixed sex fitting rooms?

Sources for increase of attacks on women due to mixed sex changing facilities:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.htmll_
https://womanmeanssomething.com/1034-2//_

1. “We understand your concerns and I want to make it clear that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken.”

So to be clear, you will only take action AFTER an offensive act has taken place? Or can you please advise what preventative steps you have put in place to safeguard women and girls from attacks from predatory men, because this statement does not assure me you have any safeguarding measures in place to protect females at all.

1. If M&S truly wanted to be inclusive and make EVERYONE comfortable (not just men) then there are plenty of alternative options that could have been implemented that don’t put women and girls openly at risk. Why have M&S chosen to ignore or implement any of these alternative options?

Most importantly:
10. Why does the safety of women and girls not matter to M&S?

Whilst your regressive and unsafe policy stands, I shall no longer be spending any money with the M&S brand.

Lesbians are not bigger and stronger than me. Lesbians don't commit 99% of sex crimes. Why would I be scared to share a fitting room with lesbians? Why would your mind even go there if you weren't ridiculously homophobic?

It’s 2019. If I am reading your comments correctly I am frankly stunned. Should lesbians be forced out too?

Why on earth are you talking about lesbians who (naturally, since they're biologically female) are as entitled to be in the women's changing room as any other woman?

Can't you tell the difference between a person's sex and their sexuality?

@maybejustmaybe
No you are not reading correctly and your comments are homophobic and quite frankly disgusting.
Take your bigotry elsewhere.

Who on earth on this thread said lesbians are male? No one.

But many said that people born male are perverts and would go into changing rooms for sexual pleasure. The reason people mentioned lesbians is because lesbians are sexually attracted to females so using your logic of men are pervs because they are sexually attracted to women would therefore also apply to lesbians. There is no homophobia here, but I can see a ton of transphobia.