It's official, Marks and Spencer have fallen

[MrsSnippyPants]

I know we have 'known' this for a while, but this is now their official response. How many 'inappropriate' incidents will be necessary before they see sense?

#BoycottM&S

I’ve had a response to my second email, where I pointed out there are no doors on disabled changing rooms, that if they were a chronically ill disabled woman, they would understand my concerns with penises in the changing rooms. Asked why the EA has been disregarded and if they’d read Twitter eg Piers Morgan, Times / Dm articles etc. Ended “In the words of pretty woman. Big mistake. Big. Huge.”

Response:

Dear MOLD

Thank you for taking the time to get back in touch. I am sorry you were unhappy with our previous reply. Please be assured your further comments have been noted for the attention of the Board of Directors and our policy team.

Kind regards
Lauren Harvey
Executive a Team

Sounds as if we are asking questions, which are beyond her pay grade. We are keeping them busy at least.

Thank you @MrsSnippyPants

God that link is sober reading.

I briefly touched on this upthread, but why should female sales assistants working for M&S be forced to help men buy lingerie? Given what they've revealed about the fitting rooms I'm willing to be the staff are expected to do just that. Do the stuff have any recourse? Could that be taken to an industrial tribunal? Because that's basically forcing your staff to submit to sexual harassment.

Actually - can anyone suggest somewhere better for measuring teenage girls for bras?

I once worked for an online lingerie retailer and tested the bra fitting services of high street retailers.

M&S was the worst and a hard no as they a) used the old method from 70 years ago which was appropriate for the materials used back then (underbust measurement + 4 inches)
and b) didn't fit me into the bra I needed, but into the sizes they had in store.

Excellent alternatives I found locally

John Lewis
Debenhams
Jenners
House of Fraser's
Bravissimo
&
most independent retailers

My best advice for all women is to learn how to measure properly yourself, teach it to your daughter, then teach her the signs of a bra that fits and one that doesn't.

Once you've taken your own measurements, if you have the time, go to one of these retailers, have them measure you and compare with your own measurements. Then visit a few more, keep notes (take photos of the bra labels they bring you that look best so you remember).

If you're at a good shop, they will explain what to look out for in the perfect bra. Armed with that knowledge, take your daughter to whoever did it best. Note the bra size they recommend and if you cannot find an affordable bra at that shop, try own brands.

They don't all fit the same way btw, some brands give you a particular shape that you may or may not like and that may or may not suit your particular shape and needs.

I have been trying for ten years for instance and cannot find any Debenhams own brand bra to fit me. Not one. Not ever. They are pretty, the fabrics feel nice and the price is good. But they just don't sit right for me, not even if I try adjacent sizes to my own.

P.S. If like me, you make the change from M&S, you may not want to believe the others are giving you the right size.

M&S had me in a 38D, I now wear either a 32G or a 34FF depending on my weight and comfort levels. The M&S ones used to slide up my back by the afternoon and sag in front, the others stay put all day, but can start feeling uncomfortable by the evening.

Yes, they need to be talking about this at their next board meeting.

Item for the agenda:

Exactly how much do we want to piss off our existing female customers?

You know I’m very fond of you MN

But that post deserved to stay. You know that really.

I have to agree with that, M&S did my first fitting and thus had me in the wrong size for years. Turned out I actually need 2 band sizes smaller and 3 cup sizes bigger than they'd indicated. This is not uncommon. Maybe now that they offer more bras in bigger cup sizes they're not doing that any more? Victoria's Secret apparently do the same, don't carry bigger cup sizes so try to squeeze customers into the sizes they do carry.

Bravissimo have a pretty good guide on their website. Like many other women I was wearing far too large a band and too small a cup. Brands do vary, so for instance I know what size I am in a Freya bra and can buy off the peg, whereas other brands fit slightly differently.
The first time I got fitted in Bravissimo was a revelation; I felt like I lost inches off my waist!
I find Asda do some cheap and cheerful bras, but given it is something I wear every day I look at cost per wear now I know my size. For a teenager who may be quickly growing out of them, I would buy a bundle of supermarket ones, try them on, learn what fits and why, then take the unwanted ones back.

An M & S bra fitter was brilliant when I had breast surgery and was struggling with discomfort and scarring. She was professional, helpful and discrete. She found me bras that I could wear in the right material and cuts. That's why I am so upset at this. It was a horrid time and she was one of the people who made it OK. But now I'm expected to have the same discussions in a mixed sex environment.

Tbh, I'd accept it if M & S just said that they were going to stop selling underwear to women as they can't be arsed to provide a safe private environment any longer. They've taken out a contract with Rue Paul or whoever and men are their new target market. That would be honest. This just feels a very personal and frankly creepy insult aimed at women.

The only explanation I can think of is that they must think that their core market of middle class mums is vehemently pro trans to the point where they'll happily embrace the loss of privacy, or they think a whole lot of their core market have trans kids and thus will embrace it out of support for their children.

I think they need better market research if that's what's prompted this.

Oh and about that question what to do if your girl needs a new size every six months or so.

There is no evidence that bras prevent breast from sagging over time. That happens with age, hormonal changes, pregnancy etc. And gravity.

We really just wear bras to meet social norms about modesty and/or because we prefer our shape in a bra. If your daughter is large chested, a bra can reduce movement and help everything stay put, but if she isn't, then camis, tank tops, vests, sports bras, bandeaus and even certain bikini or swimwear tops may work just as well and some of these options may last her longer and be cheaper. It depends entirely on what she is comfortable with, but it doesn't have to be a bra.

My mother put me into one at 13 and I hated it. The boys noticed immediately, they used to ping the back strap and make stupid remarks. One day I had enough, went to the loos at lunchtime and took the damn thing off. Idiot boys left me alone after that. As I didn't really need a bra for support or to reduce any wobble, after that I only wore a bra if I fancied doing so.

And then I got pregnant and the only place I got stretchmarks on was my breasts...

I hate bras but yes I’m conditioned to think I have to wear one and to feel ashamed if one of my nipples is showing through a top. Similarly I feel conditioned not to have VPL altho I resist that now.

A lot of M&S customers are retired. They are not of the woke classes at all. It's horrific that elderly women might be confronted with that creep from Wordpress or his pals when they've just gone in to get underwear or nightclothes from what is most definitely a women's space.

I think that this is typical male decision making where they just impose something on women and expect us to back down and give up. They don't care about our opinions, they have decided they're right. Women do have boundaries though and we also have choices, and I'm saying that as someone who is wearing M&S jeans and a cardigan today. Oh, and an M&S bra. I don't think I've bought one from anywhere else for years, but we can go elsewhere.

And from a PR point of view men in the lingerie changing rooms sounds terrible, but also a great headline for journalists. M&S have not thought this through.

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg what an amazing response.
I too have had a reply from Lauren @ M&S the exact same cut n paste that so many of you have reported

Yes, they need to be talking about this at their next board meeting.

The same board that consists of 11 men and 4 women....

I too replied to the first reply I received from “Lauren”. Have just checked, and like PP have received another reply saying that my comments have been passed to the board of directors and the policy team.

I wonder how many email complaints they have received over the past 2 days?

Thanks CharlieParley - good suggestions there.

Have people been calling them out on responding with macros instead of something personalized? That's another thing that seems ripe for social media mockery.

Someone needs to tell them clearly that it doesn’t actually matter if all doors are, in fact, lockable. The whole space itself should be female only.

For obvious reasons.

Cannot believe it even needs explaining.

Myself, my OH, and parents will no longer be shopping at M&S. Other major retailers and department stores take note - we have no problem taking our custom elsewhere, and will do so without exception.

You can check on m and s website for accessible changing rooms, all the information I looked at said they had curtains.

Am I reading this correctly? You are all going to boycott M&S because they allow trans people to use the gender changing room they identify with?

It’s 2019. If I am reading your comments correctly I am frankly stunned. Should lesbians be forced out too?

I would love to know exactly who they consulted for this decision.

Presumably Stonewall sent along their special advisors as we saw happen with GirlGuides UK.

You know how it is,
men outnumbering women in the discussions about things affecting women and girls.

Received the standard cut and paste response - I’ve responded saying that they haven’t answered my specific queries (including closing my account and taking me off their marketing database) and that I have received a generic response.

Am I reading this correctly? You are all going to boycott M&S because they allow trans people to use the gender changing room they identify with?

It’s 2019. If I am reading your comments correctly I am frankly stunned. Should lesbians be forced out too?

It’s obvious you haven’t bothered your arse to read it at all, but just decided to jump in with your accusations. Seen it all before. It’s tedious as fuck.