I Believe Her

[Brittany2019]

This is disappointing :

I think it's called Mumsnet. The resources to support women are right here and always have been and are used every day. It has a much bigger audience than a Facebook page too.

@FrothyDragon for what it's worth, just wanted to say don't take to heart all that's on here.
As you say, it's your page you want to go right by your morals, your stance etc, be true to you
That's admirable.
Keep to it despite some of the stuff on here

Touché Kara

It is very painful seeing this, it happened with that bookshop too, not trying to minimise how distraught it is

Lately I’ve just been removing myself from spaces that feel hostile to us and re-directing to radfem spaces

The problem is, many spaces set up originally by radfems or based on rad principles

Are now Turning libfem and then kicking out any radfems who complain as T**Fs

It would almost be funny

If it wasn’t so sad

The relationships board on Mumsnet is one of the most radical spaces here.

LTB is a wonderful expression.

It is a sad phenomenon, radical feminists being left homeless because of trans. It's been happening a long time. It brings to mind the boards of I Blame the Patriarchy which claimed to be radical feminist, then banned all the rad fems and women who didn't support trans ideology. In the end they were left with men and a handful of Aunt Lydias who'd carried out the banning. Then it closed.

Karabair- I agree, Relationships, along with FWR are, possibly, the most radical women's spaces on the internet. They're awesome.

I sometimes forget that the rest of the world hasn't caught up yet.

I know her personally, and it's a topic extremely close to her heart.

What topic precisely is close to your friend's heart? The belief that women who don't believe transwomen are women are witches who should be no platformed? The idea that such women shouldn't be allowed to speak on a page that's meant to support rape victims?

I think you need to have a think about the influence your friend is having on your feminism, because judging by what you've said here it's not good.

Also, re Power's comments, "get fucked" is a particularly telling phrase to use when the subject under discussion is a page designed to support rape victims, and the fact that many women feel it's no longer doing so. One might almost call that a Freudian slip, in fact.

Moderating that (shit) in any frame of mind is a nightmare for anyone. That’s why you shouldn’t even open the doors to it.

Indeed. Which is why it's pointless for Frothy to rail at the women here for upsetting her by being upset by what she's done with the page that she started based on and using a slogan and idea created by Mumsnet, and thus in a sense collectively owned by the women on this site (the slogan/concept, not her page, before anyone deliberately misunderstands). Opening the door to TRA demands is what's caused the current mess, and for that decision Frothy has only herself to blame.

Frothy, you seem to be doing what many others have done in that you're sitting on the fence and trying to please both sides of this "debate". The problem is that it can't be done - all that happens is that you get splinters in your arse and people on both sides get angry with you. If you've chosen the TWAW side then that's your choice, but own it and change the name of your page to disassociate it from the original Mumsnet campaign, because the choices you're making are not reflecting the original intent of that campaign at all. If you want a libfem, TWAW and let's talk about how women rape too page then there's no reason you can't have one, but it should be its own separate thing and not piggyback on a campaign that it its original form wasn't about that at all.

If you want a libfem, TWAW and let's talk about how women rape too page then there's no reason you can't have one, but it should be its own separate thing and not piggyback on a campaign that it its original form wasn't about that at all.

This. I also think that it sounds like you want male rape victims to feel welcome on the page (which is your choice) so changing the name would help with this.

It would probably be a good idea to be very clear about what is and isn’t acceptable on the page, what will get people deleted and what will get people banned.

Everyone can then make the decision as to whether it is a space for them or not and it limits the risk of upset from people of all sides.

Personally I don’t think it is a space for me anymore but, as I say, it is your space - you get to decide who does and who doesn’t feel welcome there.

That phrase did strike me as borderline abusive in context. We’re talking about rape survivors here, have some sensitivity.

(Sorry - that was directed to the person who said it, not those rightfully discussing it)

So what if you are exhausted frothy? So what? Go and rest if need be or take a break from the page but you being tired won’t stop us talking about it. Change the name to reflect what the page is for or continue to make women feel uncomfortable or without a space to go and talk. You keep making excuses that frankly don’t stick. Maybe give the page up if you can’t handle it? It’s not like it’s going to be much use anymore anyway.

Frothydragon has studiously ignored all the posts about the campaign originating on Mumsnet from a radical feminist understanding of rape. Terfs indeed.

Tumblr is full of people going "reblogging this but a TERF said it so I'm stealing it, it's ours now, TERFS don't respond!"

It's almost as if we understand the world better than you do and that's why you have to keep stealing our ideas while shitting on us at the same time.

If you don’t have the radical feminism you get to ‘women are rapists too’ in about two seconds flat.

Also, re Power's comments, "get fucked" is a particularly telling phrase to use when the subject under discussion is a page designed to support rape victims, and the fact that many women feel it's no longer doing so. One might almost call that a Freudian slip, in fact.

One might say the same of your comment about Frothydragon "railing against women".

"Railing" somebody is a misogynistic slang word for violently having sex with them, so you are creating latent associations between her 'betrayal' of women and VAWG.

Never heard of “railing” used that way, certainly not on MN - is it a term used in porn?

Ridiculous false equivalence.

You really aren't very bright, are you Power? And desperate, to boot.

Rail as a verb means "protest strongly" and has done for a lot longer than any sexual slang sense. Here, although I realise traditional definitions of words mean fuck all to some folk, is a helpful etymology for you:

rail (v.1)

"complain," mid-15c., from Middle French railler "to tease or joke" (15c.), perhaps from Old Provençal ralhar "scoff, to chat, to joke," from Vulgar Latin *ragulare "to bray" (source also of Italian ragghiare "to bray"), from Late Latin ragere "to roar," probably of imitative origin

And you and I both know that's not what I meant, and so does everyone else. But hey, keep trying to deflect, it's been going so well thus far.

What a talent to be an expert in obscure sexually abusive slang.

Even if they (he? she?) were/was correct, it wouldn't take away from the sexually abusive "get fucked".

Shall we count the deflections? There have been a lot.

If I were Frothy, I would be looking at Power's contributions to this thread in defence of me and thinking what the actual fuck have I just done to my page?

Also this is an excellent example of why reading the whole sentence is important. Does one say one is railing against a person if one tends to use obscure and rather repulsive sexual slang? Seems a bit odd, grammatically speaking.

Yeah if I was attracting friends like that I'd be a bit concerned tbh.

Thats nailing

Not railing

Honestly!!!

Thats really quite funny...so desperate

If I were Frothy, I would be looking at Power's contributions to this thread in defence of me and thinking what the actual fuck have I just done to my page?

The distinct reek of misogyny?