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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Trans chat

485 replies

Babyjakesmum · 16/10/2019 19:10

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

OP posts:
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AnyOldPrion · 16/10/2019 22:16

It no longer feels safe for anyone.

What do you think we’re going to do? Debate you till it hurts? Feel free not to read. Fixed!

I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again.

And?

BeMoreMagdalen · 16/10/2019 22:16

Yes, it's a well known feminist method to call women talking about protecting all women's rights 'bitter'.

Justhadathought · 16/10/2019 22:19

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life

So much to unpack in this paragraph alone.

What has made you 'hard-bitten', I wonder? And would you still describe yourself in this way? I, for one, would certainly never describe myself as 'hard-bitten' - suggestive as that is of lack of empathy and compassion, and a bit battle weary.....

I'm not sure how old you are, but I and I know for certain that many of the women here are no longer spring chickens: many of us grandmothers, as well as mothers; others long at the front line of radical and liberation politics......Women who know deeply and feel strongly the roots of the oppression of women.

Nobody here is 'anti-trans'; what they are is pro-women and pro female empowerment; protective of women's spaces and the services and positions that have ben long fought for. Nobody here is against civil rights for anyone.

This is about first order principles, not about specific individuals.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 16/10/2019 22:20

Fingers crossed it's just bedbugs OP Smile

Just don’t quack in the vicinity unless you’re certain it’s bedbugs not Thighs. That was Rufus’s mistake.

LangCleg · 16/10/2019 22:20

Meh. Plopper.

0/10

FleetsumNJetsum · 16/10/2019 22:21

It no longer feels safe for anyone

The people in 2BthatUnnoticed's post don't feel safe either. So we have to discuss this issue. If you really are a feminist, or even just a human being with compassion for other human beings, come back and do that thing. Chat.

NotBadConsidering · 16/10/2019 22:24

And the script they trot out is becoming as predictable as reruns of 'Friends'

The One Where Chandler’s Transgender Parent Tells Monica to Die in a Grease Fire.

SciFiScream · 16/10/2019 22:29

If we're doing the "trans friends" thing...my trans friends agree with much of the conversation in FWR

I would be considered trans within the Stonewall definition of trans

All the discussion here is how to centre the needs of women and children. If that = anti trans then surely you must see that the opposite must be true?

A big concern of mine is that predators will abuse the societal and cultural change that will accompany self-ID

Single sex spaces matter

Acknowledging sex is important for trans people too. If a medical professional treated a trans woman for asthma using the medical info designed for XX women that could kill the trans woman. They need more medicine due to lung size etc. Why do you wish death on trans people OP? I don't. I want them to have appropriate and specialised healthcare that caters for their sex AND their gender identity.

Original poster
Babyjakesmum · 16/10/2019 22:30

Thank you to those who gave polite responses to my comments. I absolutely respect different opinions when they given in a calm and thought out manner. I also do understand that there are many shades of opinion and that not everyone is being hateful in the way they use and discuss their opinions, even as they differ from my own.

However, my original point is being borne out by those one here who being rude, bullying, aggressive and just downright nasty. In particular there are a number who are repeatedly demanding, with insults, that I come back and get involved in a big fight over this.

I'm not going to rise to any of that. Your comments have been seen. Understand I am not in need of education, I do understand the issues, I have seen all these arguments before, and I just do not agree them, and I do that on the basis of evidence and experience.

I am not a "coward", I just see no point in getting into an acrimonious bun-fight that would not benefit anyone.

My actual point in posting was about the tone of the debate on here and how damaging and harmful that is both here, to trans people in general and to the reputation of Mumsnet, which used to be such a positive environment.

I have said what I wanted to say and I am going to leave it at that.

Goodnight.

OP posts:
tobee · 16/10/2019 22:30

Lol.

Qcng · 16/10/2019 22:32

No return after 3 hours, I can only guess, that's us told. We should all go home now.

Fraggling · 16/10/2019 22:32

Oh please come back

I would like to understand more about why I'm so insecure about my femininity Sad

Qcng · 16/10/2019 22:32

Oh.
X post!

Inebriati · 16/10/2019 22:34

You haven't answered any of the points about women in prison, just posted another variation of ''be more nice''.
Its really not women who are being nasty, OP.

Leporidae · 16/10/2019 22:34

My actual point in posting was about the tone of the debate on here and how damaging and harmful that is both here, to trans people in general and to the reputation of Mumsnet, which used to be such a positive environment.

MN has been known as a manhating nest of vipers since forever though.

LangCleg · 16/10/2019 22:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Leporidae · 16/10/2019 22:36

And there is nothing wrong with that, if you ask me.

Qcng · 16/10/2019 22:36

My actual point in posting was about the tone of the debate on here and how damaging and harmful that is both here, to trans people in general and to the reputation of Mumsnet, which used to be such a positive environment

Don't think Mumsnet has ever been known for it's "positive environment" to be honest.
It's the home of AIBU and LTB first and foremost, where women stand up for other women but in very blunt language.

I like blunt language it makes life so much easier.

Qcng · 16/10/2019 22:37

Yes it's always been a nest of vipers here. Thought everyone knew that.

ErrolTheDragon · 16/10/2019 22:40

the tone of the debate on here

Ummm... have you seen what it's like elsewhere (if debate is even allowed)?Confused

littlbrowndog · 16/10/2019 22:43

Nopes you still don’t engage. You just write a bit then run off

Be polite women be kind
And of course listen to the ops statements.

Because they are the best statements ever 🤦‍♀️

Leporidae · 16/10/2019 22:44

I wonder why FWR so often get the "watch your tone" type of posts. Maybe those who aren't very familiar with Mn will think that our female socialization will kick in and it will make posters apologize like proper ladies.

littlbrowndog · 16/10/2019 22:45

You brought nothing here op

You wrote some stuff then ran off fast as you could

Butterisbest · 16/10/2019 22:47

@Babyjakesmum
You simply cannot have been a feminist for longer than I've been alive. I'm 61, that would mean you're in your early 80s, baby Jake is probably picking up his pension. As others have said, your life experiences and the timescale just don't add up.

Your insistence that nobody here actually knows any trans people is utterly ridiculous and very stupid.
These days it's impossible to be a hard bitten feminist without the recognition that Women and girls are being harmed by the current trans ideology. Stop telling women that they are anti trans and understand that this is all about being pro Women and girls.
Children are being used as experimental objects, if those children were dogs, there would be a National outrage.

TensingArndale · 16/10/2019 22:47

My actual point in posting was about the tone of the debate on here

Appeals to female socialisation that we should be nicer, don't cut it any more here.

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