Trans chat

[Babyjakesmum]

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

So you’re in favour of mixed sex changing rooms etc. That’s fine and you’re right; most men are not a threat but some are, and WILL abuse the opportunity to be in female spaces. And even if none of them ever had bad intent, some women just don’t feel comfortable changing in close proximity to men.

Surely it’s best to have vulnerable LBT and GBT prisoners sensitively housed within the estate of their birth sex?

Housing transwomen in separate wings in the female estate will mean sending all of the UKs T prisoners to wherever the specialist units happen to be. That makes visiting difficult for families and friends and the importance of visits on prisoner’s mental health is well documented.

I don't have the remotest issue with trans people but I do have an issue with legislation originally designed to help trans folk which has the consequence of allowing predatory men to access women's spaces, and take places ringfenced for women in society and not least sport. The two, transpeople and predators are not equivalent but the issues can't be separated. We know predatory men exist and that they will exploit these loopholes because that's what predatory men do. We can't wish the problem of predatory men away unfortunately.

Also I think we need more scrutiny of long term effects of medicalising children out of their biological puberty.

I'd say most here are concerned about harm and unwanted consequences caused inadvertently by the ideology around trans issues. Sorting these issues out benefits everyone but to do that we have to be able to talk and debate and that will include biological factors. Women are oppressed on the basis of their biology not how they identify.

Why shouldnt Transwomen be housed completely separately in women’s prisons...because I can’t see that this would be detrimental to women prisoners. How would it affect them?
I believe we should accommodate the wishes of transwomen to be treated by the state as the gender they feel they are where it doesn’t affect anyone else. Isn’t that just respect and compassion?

Because the relatively small numbers of transwomen prisoners means their would only be one or two units in the country. Housing prisoners near their home is really important.

Your suggestion would make things worse for large numbers of transwomen prisoners.

Besides, male and female offenders have vastly different offending patterns (women ten to be imprisoned for things like non payment of fines or receiving stolen goods) so the female prison estate isn’t classified in the same way as the male estate.

Transwomen’s offending patterns remain male patterns after transition. There is no such thing as maximum security for women in England and Wales - theoretically natal women who need this level of supervision can be housed in separate wings in the male estate (there are none who currently require it) and if that’s good enough for natal women, why isn’t it good enough for transwomen?

Do other prisoners get their wishes catered to?

Why are special privileges and treatment automatically assigned to one tiny segment of the population which will only encourage hostility, resentment or unscrupulous individuals to exploit loopholes for their own purpose?

Are female staff at female prisons also expected to handle transwomen prisoners and work in the transwomen prisons?

You really think transwomen will agree to having completely separate facilities next to a women's prison?

OP. They know exactly what you mean. But you may as well talk to the wall because they are fanatics. You won't get any balanced debate here.

Zombie thread alert!

''Fanatics'' .
You spend a lifetime being told whats expected of you if you have a vagina.
Someone decides to move the goalposts and you get called a fanatic for knowing a penis is not designed to gestate or birth a baby.

I have no hatred for trans people whatsoever. I am happy for anyone to dress, act and name themselves however they please, as long as it’s not harming anyone else.

I disagree with children and adults being told that if they conform to the opposite gender stereotype that means they are in the wrong sex body, rather than the stereotype being wrong.

I disagree with children being given medical treatment with long term irreversible effects without counselling and differential diagnosis being thoroughly explored first.

I disagree with female spaces and sports, that were created for biological reasons, being opened to people with non female biology. There are reasons these spaces were created and those reasons have not gone away.

I disagree with the redefining of the word “woman” to be based on feelings rather than biology. We need a word for people who are biologically female, woman is that word. Transwomen can be called transwomen without needing to appropriate the word woman. If the word transwoman is seen as derogatory then we need to change that perception rather than change the meaning of the word woman.

I disagree with the shouting down and insulting of anyone who dares to question the TWAW mantra.

@Durgasarrow

Trans people deserve rights. But they don't deserve women's rights.

^ this

Gottalife
Seriously? You hoping that calling black white for long enough people will believe your bullshit?

Ellebow why have you joined today, resurrecting a zombie thread, with posts that seem questionable?

Someone (or several someones) are on a bumping-zombie-threads mission. Quite to what end, I'm not sure. But making up transphobic looking shit for the screenshots while pretending to be GC feminists might be one possibility.

Yup.

I've enjoyed reporting all transphobic posts here 😊

@DianasLasso

Someone (or several someones) are on a bumping-zombie-threads mission. Quite to what end, I'm not sure. But making up transphobic looking shit for the screenshots while pretending to be GC feminists might be one possibility.

Indeed.

And, by the same token, posts asking rather mild questions are also very screen shotable.

I will fight to the death anyone who tries to undermine my femininity (snortle!).

I didn't feel compelled to comment until I saw this -

it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone

No longer a safe space?? For ANYONE ???????

😂😂😂

I sympathise with your family situation, but I think the quote I took from your post is utter nonsense. Are you expecting Mumsnet users to ride the streets on their Harleys brandishing crossbows? Or on a different scale, you think we'll track you down, call your employers to get you sacked for not adhering to the party line? That we'll try to stop you from speaking about your rights? What, exactly, isn't safe for you here of all places OP?

For an older woman, you certainly speak in the language of someone much younger. Saying 'safe space' is a tad young even for me as a Millennial. It's undergrad university speak that's been popular in the last few years, way after I was at uni even. I think Tumblr might be a better fit for you.

Safe space indeed!

@ginginchinchin

Zombie thread alert!

Thanks. I think the admins need to lock it if it keeps coming up.

@Skyliner001

I've enjoyed reporting all transphobic posts here 😊

This threads 10 months old, you're a bit late