Trans chat

[Babyjakesmum]

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

We're just setting up a forge back home so don't worry about that.

You could set up a new thread called chit chat for the hilarious.

Bunbury was sort of the place for that - and of course next door to the Thighs in the secret place - but we were invaded there too as I recall Although I was on hols at the time, so I just came back to find an empty house and tumbleweed.

Women! You shall not use humour to make your point! Ve have vays of stopping you talk.....

Women are being prevented from discussing our rights in all places, at all times.

It's shocking.

"Men are afraid women are going to laugh at them, women are afraid men are going to kill them."

Bunbury was sort of the place for that - and of course next door to the Thighs in the secret place - but we were invaded there too as I recall

I feel bad that we have fucked it up for the Thighs. It's like spreading the misery.

No Lung we fucked it up for ourselves by marauding. I'm sure it is annoying for some people when you're trying to make points to have a Thigh pop in and talk about piss. You got to know us but if you hadn't you'd be thinking wtaf. I get it, honestly.

I'm not sure it was men who objected to the Bunbury decamp.

I suppose the act of forming into cliques is horrible to those who are not in the clique.

Disclaimer: We don't exclude anyone.

Wherever we go, they will track us down and insist we not be allowed to speak.

No, it was women who messed up the Bunbury decamp. It is a sad fact that the trans movement is supported by some vocal women.

To them, everything's fine - they have benefitted, their whole lives, from the rights their grandmothers fought for - and so now feel comfortable enough to include certain males in their feminism. I do not.

So there are an similar proportion of predatory sex offenders in cis and transwomens populations? No, probably not. But you are right to say we cannot base social policy on the assumption that all transwomen are like Karen White. Transwomen are entitled to safety and dignity too. The really scary thing is that the TRA reign of terror means that decision makers and managers in public services are frightened to say that the placement of transwomen with vulnerable biological women should be decided on a case by case/risk assessed basis because “don’t you know transwomen are women, being a woman is in your head not your body, shut yer TERF mouth or Ill shut it for you... yadda yadda yadda” etc.

Transwomen can have their own separate wing in male prisons. They will remain safe and have access to any facilities or services they require.

Transwomen do not need to be placed in women's prisons on an individual case by case basis. That's not how the Equalities legislation works. It's determined at a service wide level.

Females are at significant risk of danger from male violence and prisons are acutely susceptible to this. Single sex prisons are structured with this in mind.
Transwomen are males and they should be provided with facilities in male prisons if they are worried about their safety.
Pushing males into female spaces, and therefore increasing the risk of violence on women, is not the way to solve this issue.

Male on male violence is NOT a problem for women to solve. And certainly not by shoving males alongside already vulnerable females.

Eh?

Why has this thread suddenly popped up again after nearly month?

Why not separate wings in women’s prisons Noonymouse? That keeps biological
women safe from assault and the range of feelings from discomfort to humiliation that a woman may have if they have to share a space with a male bodied person yet acknowledges that transwomen are not men. I just think the insistence that transwomen should have separate facilities in men’s prisons is a bit punitive.

Why?

Why the pretence that sex doesn't mean anything? When we know it does, even TRAs and their allies know it does but aren't going to admit that as their whole house of cards will come down.

Where this has happened women have occasionally had to mix with the males during the day in sometimes quite intimate circumstances. Male prisons have nothing to do with gender identity. There's nothing wrong with keeping male prisoners together in the male estate. It's a farce.

Men in prison will identify as women for a number of reasons. And even if they are kept separately to actual women, they will still do it in order to just fuck with the system. Why wouldn't you? You don't have to actually do anything.

But why should gay male prisoners, or gay ginger haired prisoners also not be housed in separate wings of the female prison, after all they are also likely to experience higher levels of violence from men.

Some typos in your post Slattern, I’ve corrected them for you :
Separate wings in men’s prisons Noonymouse?
That keeps biological
women safe from assault and acknowledges that transwomen are not women. I just think the insistence that transwomen should have separate facilities in women’s prisons is dangerous.

Why is it punitive, ladyslattern?

Transwomen are biological males. What is the point in lumping them in female prisons?

No one said transwomen have to be forced to be housed within the main prison with other men. If they had their own separate wing where they are safe, what is so horrible about that? What's with the obsession to push men towards women's spaces and facilities all the time?

Or the alternative is to have a completely separate prison that only accommodates transgender prisoners. One that is away from both male and female prisons.

You can refer to this thread for more information about transgender prison population.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733987-Judicial-review-for-woman-prisoner-alleging-sexual-assault-by-trans-rapist-in-prison

One in 50 inmates in adult male prisons claims to be transgender or transsexual, according to HM Chief Inspector of Prisons.

There were approximately 78.71 thousand men and 3.83 thousand women in prison in the United Kingdom as of May 2019.

78,710 ÷ 50 = 1,574.2

Therefore there are roughly 1600 transgender prisoners. More than enough to justify their own separate prison service that has nothing to do with women's prisons.

If they had their own separate wing where they are safe, what is so horrible about that?

I guess because we all have to play along with the ideological belief that males can be women.

Nonnys post makes sense in principle.

However I have a feeling that if such separate accommodation DID exist the number who wished to transition there would suddenly become much smaller. Sort of seems to imply that some men are identifying as women for some reason other than a deep persistent and insistent personal belief that they are women.

But never mind. We have been assured that this never happens so I am probably wrong.

I guess because we all have to play along with the ideological belief that males can be women.

Precisely.

We acknowledge they're not women, but have to put them nearer to a women's prison than a man's. It's so lame. And it basically just pisses off everybody simultaneously.

I can't begin to comprehend the number of hours, money, meetings, minutes, emails, phone calls, reports and surveys that have gone into this issue. Hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of time wasting. Tax payers money too.

It should never have started in the first place. It's just a piece of piss to say no. It's already enshrined in equality law, ffs.

Trans people deserve rights. But they don't deserve women's rights.