Transgender manager sues after botched op costs him his leg

[Yeahnahyeah]

I could weep.

city-press.news24.com/News/transgender-manager-sues-after-botched-op-costs-him-his-leg-20191001

4th Wave Now are also following botched surgeries by a different doctor, this one in the U.S.

4thwavenow.com/2019/08/26/catching-up-with-renowned-phalloplasty-surgeon-dr-curtis-crane/

It appears botched phalloplasties are the norm, not the exception. How could they not be? It is such a brutal proceedure.

I can't see much point in continuing with this discussion. You are only interested in hearing from people who agree with you so there is really no point

Not at all.

We are just asking for you to state what exactly it is you think is being treated.

With anorexia and other eating disorders theres evidence right in front of your eyes.

You can see when people are over or under weight . There are people who see them collapse or struggle to move, who can see that despite multiple layers of clothing the bones are sticking out.

You can see them.eat copious amounts of food or none at all.

But there's nothing but words with transgenderism.

You are advocating for surgery on the basis of someones verbal claim that theres somethin wrong.

Something no one else can possibly see. Something that should you remove the clothes or the make up and walkes in on them asleep in a hospital gown there is zero indication of whatsoever.

Something that every blood test every scan every photograph or video would show no.evidence of besides their own use of their own props.

If its not mental or physical then what is it. Because either theres a problem.thats apparent and needs treating in which case why cant anyone else see it touch it or feel it. Or nothings wrong at all in which case what are we treating them for ?

Obese people can have counselling and sometimes they still don’t lose weight because they just can’t change their behaviours.

Even if it did always work over 60 per cent of the population is overweight or obese. We could never possibly recruit and train a large enough number of psychotherapists or counsellors to provide therapy for years to everyone who is overeating for a whole range of emotional/ psychological reasons.

SarahTancredi

I don't know what it is, I've already said that. I wouldn't presume to pretend that I know better than either a trans gender person or a Dr experienced in the field.

The fact that there is nothing to "see", either physically or on scans proves nothing either way - what can you see that proves a patient has depression?

If this isn't considered to be a mental or physical condition then it's akin, in my mind, to patients wanting cosmetic surgery. Anyone wanting liposuction or breast implants can have it if they can pay for it even if to the rest of us we can see nothing wrong.

Some patients can have surgery on the NHS, if their condition fits certain criteria. I just don't see why this is such a concern for anyone other than those who choose to have it.

Because its being sold as something it isnt. And those doing it genuinely believe that it is what they are being told.

If they are going in to it knowing full well the risks , knowing that it doesnt change your sex,that's one thing.

But if they are being told they have changed sex, if they now have not had to have any kind.of therapy what so ever as it's no longer a mental health issue then that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

And consenting adult or not, I think its actually very important to ask yourself , what is the mental state and competencey of someone who knowingly goes through surgery with significant failure rates, where even the success stories, well the bar is bloody low let's face it, are not anything remotely worth putting yourself through the risks of surgery for.

I dont think.its a bad question to ask. Why are perfectly healthy bodied people putting themselves through hours of risky surgery that involves a lifetime of up keep that and can become infected fir years afterwards, and serves no purpose except to try and look a.little bit like some drs pornified idea if a part of an anatomy.

Would mentally healthy do that. Would you not worry about someone who made the decision to do it?

Tequila not engaging is a very good way of not answering questions you don't like.

It's also a good way of swerving having to apologise or explain why you misrepresent posters on this thread who don't agree with you, by claiming they think that it's easy to treat mental health with therapy. Literally no one has said that. I'd be amazed if they had. You saying that they did reveals a lot about how carefully you are reading posts and what sort of preconceived ideas you have about other posters.

Isnt there a dr who has something like 8 law suits pending fir this kind of surgery?

If people go into something head on knowing full well what can happen, and not to get too optimistic about the results and ome of the many listed complications happened would they even have a case?

Surely there would only be a case to answer to of patients had been lied to or had things done really badly that were avoidable?
Many law suits for the same kind of surgery from people who were all consenting adults seems very suspicious to me

4thwavenow.com/2018/03/26/update-san-francisco-phalloplasty-surgeon-now-with-8-malpractice-suits/

Here

Interesting thing about cosmetic surgery in the uk
www.prasis.co.uk/support_guidance/reducing_risk/cosmetic_surgery_on_under_1618s.aspx

And on cosmetic surgery in general, there is rather a lot in there about making sure full understanding must happen.

www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/Guidance_for_doctors_who_offer_cosmetic_interventions_210316.pdf_65254111.pdf

The difference between obesity and anorexia is delusion. Gender dysphoria has delusion as a feature.

The WHO and others may say it is not a mental health condition - but, there is a delusion that their body is "wrong". Our bodies may not be the way we would like, they may not enjoy the best of health, but, they are what they are - not being our ideal does not make them "Wrong", just not what we'd choose if we were a game of Mr Potato Head.

Bariatric patients are not unaware of their body condition - a symptom of anorexia is to be unable to see the body as it really is, they see fat where there is none.

Trans people and anorexics both reject a normal body and believe it to be "wrong" and in need of adjustment. People with anorexia achieve that alone, people with gender issues need the validation, prescription and surgeries from medics. Both do harm to an otherwise healthy body, and the root of the harm is in the mind - clearly and agreed in the case of anorexia, not in transgenderism.

Medics who give people drugs which will do them harm, or surgeries which are not medically necessary could do to reflect on some critical thinking.

I'm glad to see a growing number of medics expressing concern about the approach to managing transgender patients. Because this is just fucking mental.

Strangely familiar derailment style on this thread.

I'm in my early 30s.
I went to a school with 1000 other kids.
2000 over the time I was there.
Not a single one of them was trans that I or my siblings are aware of.
Some of us were gender non confirming. Some of them were and are gay.
Some of us had eating disorders. Some self harmed.
Where are all the anorexic girls now? They're trans instead. This just wasn't a thing 20 years ago. The fact that it is now proves social contagion.
No one is born in the wrong body. There is no such thing as a gendered soul.
I had an eating disorder, I know what it's like to hate your body, hate everything about yourself.
To not fit in. To thrash around trying to grab some control, to change yourself, to find answers, to try to be happy in this fucked up world. Growing up is hard.
I feel so sorry for girls trying to grow up in this world that seems even more fucked now than it was then.

This is the natural progression of a society which encourages surgery for every conceived flaw in the body - nose jobs, breast jobs, lip plumping, face lifts. The whole idea that we have the right to look the way we desire, through mutilating heathy, working bodies - an act that in itself is supposed to make us happy - is bizarre.

I’m almost 60 but when I was 25 I was sterilised. I got pregnant easily and had my family. I was allowed an operation on the nhs as a young person with another 20 years of potential fertility.

But nowadays it would be very unlikely to be done at that age because so many people have changed their minds when they have it so young. It is too costly to give to young women who may change their mind, and yet it is a tiny operation in comparison to ftm ‘bottom’ surgery. But 35 years ago it was much more freely done with very little counselling.

I think trans surgery could go the same way - the de-transing movement is gaining momentum and in an nhs where resources are being spread more thinly every year, operations which are not physically medically necessary will be the ones to go first.

Ftm is a massively more complex and costly operation compared to mtf. I don’t see how either can continue to be seen as affordable interventions - particularly with a higher understanding of rate of complications and rate of de-transition being clearer.

This is why there is such resistance to research into the longer term flaws of the surgeries as treatment for what we are discovering could be a very varied number of factors behind the desire to change sex. The surgeries, I believe, will be eventually be dropped from the NHS for almost everyone, regardless of the history behind the desire.

The heavy risks of previously physically healthy patients becoming chronically ill through the surgery, or changing their mind/requiring further corrective surgery or suing has to preclude it eventually. I can’t see how it can be sustainable, at least on the NHS.

Medical trends change, - they always have - as we learn more. Research is critical.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7541679/Hundreds-youths-gender-surgery-wish-hadnt-says-head-advocacy-network.html

Trans people and anorexics both reject a normal body and believe it to be "wrong" and in need of adjustment. People with anorexia achieve that alone, people with gender issues need the validation, prescription and surgeries from medics. Both do harm to an otherwise healthy body, and the root of the harm is in the mind - clearly and agreed in the case of anorexia, not in transgenderism.

Just to point out that if bodies like WHO are saying it's NOT a mental or physical health condition then what they ARE saying is its a cultural issue or quasi-religious belief that someone thinks they have been born in the 'wrong' body. Aka this is a lifestyle choice not a health choice.

This in theory should have major ramifications.

There certainly should not be procedures carried out on the NHS for lifestyle reasons.

There should be higher, not lower, levels of ethical oversight.

There should be much, more scrutiny over the medical effects of hormones and surgery and whether there are long term side effect - more on a par with potential substance abuse.

There should be awareness of what happens if someone is dissatisfied with their lifestyle choice.

Also if this is a lifestyle choice there should be scrutiny over whether its advocates encourage this lifestyle choice in more vulnerable groups for whatever reason.

Conversely if this is indeed a mental health condition there should be much more scrutiny of giving surgery to those with mental health issues because they are more at risk if something goes wrong, and there needs to be a higher level of gatekeeping to ensure that vulnerable people do fully understand possible side effects and long term physical risks that might come from surgery, and obviously psychological support must form a dual strategy of dealing with with that aspect of the issue.

The problem is because the likes of Stonewall have lumped people who are cross dressing (lifestyle primarily) with people who have some sort of dysphoria (definitely mental health) together into one singular group and then the likes of WHO are subsequently forming policy on the basis of this.

The net result is neither group are being served either by lobbyists or by health professionals which leaves vulnerable groups open to exploitation from unethical and unscrupulous people willing to cash in on the trans industry (and that's what it is).

Those who are trans for lifestyle reasons are mislead by claims of hormones and surgery being amazing with little research or information about long term issues. This is covered up by the mental health claim of suicide if they can't have the lifestyle they want?

If its a lifestyle choice then why are people given power for saying about suicide? That's like a drug addict saying if I don't get my meds I'll shoot myself (potentially taking out others in the process).

Which then comes back to either a problem with 'the dealers' (those misspelling the lifestyle and getting people hooked on drugs /idea of surgery) or/and the whole mental health angle.

The lack of scrutiny and ethics either way is mind blowing and utterly appalling. And that's really the scandal, not whether women off the Internet are saying sex is important and it's not the same thing as gender.

It's what either people who want the lifestyle or are vulnerable with mental health issues are being told by the medical profession and by lobby groups.

The attempts to silence are merely trying to cover up and pretend there isn't an entire industry based on exploition going on, and it's very easily spottable in the cognitive dissonance which is 'its not a mental health condition but I'll kill myself if I don't get my own way' that's going on.

There should not be an argument on this thread if you believe that medicine and surgery should be ethical and be lead by evidence not ideology.

If you are arguing to the contrary then you are advocating for a medical wild west where big pharma can advert without impunity or restrictions and doctors can experiment on whoever they like for whatever reason without the patient either being aware or having little to no recourse of malpractice.

Oh and a complete lack of thought for appropriate mental health support, because that's 'transphobic' to suggest.

It is that black and white yet this is how the area is effectively being run at the moment.

And I've not even mentioned how it's potentially homophobic and sexist in its ramifications too.

Seems to be a trend of ‘transing ’out the gay. As if a person who strives to alter temblor body to the extent of major surgery and a lifetime of drugs and denial is ‘better than gay’.

It's not unrelated that you see on social media moms in the Bible Belt of the US blarbing on about their trans kids.

I guess the bible condemned gay but not trans (although I’m sure they’re is a bit about men not wearing women’s clothes but you can get around that by declaring that little Fred is a girl).

Re comparisons with Bariatric surgery.

If you have bariatric surgery you have certain health risks that accompany your weight, and a surgeon SHOULD be weighing this up against the risks of surgery.

If you are trans and it's NOT a mental health issue then you theoretically DO NOT have risks associated with not having surgery because your body and mind are otherwise healthy. However you might have physical co-morbid health issues which absolutely should be taken into consideration when considering surgery or hormones. Thus the need for gatekeeping.

The comparison here is to suggest that bariatric surgery and trans related surgery or hormones have the same starting point - that's not true. Or at least shouldn't be.

The accurate comparison if we take the view its not a mental health is is about approving bariatric surgery for someone who is a healthy weight to prevent them becoming overweight or obese in future AND not considering the risks short term and long term of surgery.

Cos that's what removing gatekeeping and ethics means.

Someone deciding to take drugs or surgery because they believe their body is 'wrong' is a totally different kettle if fish for this reason.

There are reasons why hormones and surgery are not appropriate if your body otherwise healthy because you are actively introducing unnecessary risk for lifestyle reasons.

If you are saying it's mental health related, then mental health avenues should be pursued as a first line treatment.

If this ISN'T being done in the case of bariatric surgery in ALL cases (as in anyone can just ask for it and get it without gatekeeping) , then again this is fundamentally going against medical ethics and is actively potentially dangerous.

The whole point is that there should be a series of checks in the system to ensure risk is understood and managed to minimise it and to act in the best long term interests of the patient.

That's what's absent from trans health and the lobbying on trans health.

I do think there are areas of private practice which cover cosmetic procedures and may include some bariatric surgery where following ethical practice is substandard and missing which is exposing some patients to unnecessary risk. That too is a scandal. But this side of the cosmetic industry absolutely shouldn't be being used as a justification for allowing trans medicine to have less gatekeeping.

Either bariatric surgery is done for health reasons (remember WHO is now saying trans treatment is purely for lifestyle) thus there is a risk if no surgery is carried out or its cosmetic and there are ethical reasons why its not appropriate.

The whole trans lobby message is that surgery and hormones are appropriate in ALL cases, and doctors should only affirm not ask questions or raise concerns about risk as to do so is transphobic.

The comparison between bariatric surgery and trans issues therefore represents a either a complete lack of understanding or complete deliberate disregard of risk management, safeguarding and medical ethics.

Which frankly is either very ignorant or simply frankly utterly terrifying and actively into eugenics and advocating exploitation and abuse for commercial purposes.

A more accurate comparison with bariatric surgery for morbidly obese people is someone who self harms by cutting themselves. The long term solution is therapy and changing the behaviour long term, but short term you still disinfect and sew up the wounds to treat the consequences of the self harm.
I can't think of an accurate comparison to trans surgery, as it seems unique in terms of being more deadly than cancer, while simultaneously being not a mental health issue, but a huge suicide risk. I can't think of any other medical situation where so many conflicting bits of information are all agreed as facts.

This is why so many trans people are opting to keep their biological bits and live as the opposite sex and fighting for the rights they'd have as the opposite sex I think.

The surgeries are very risky. I don't think just because you're a man that wants to be a woman, you should have your penis cut off in a risky surgery to gain a non useful vagina to be considered a woman.

It's very tricky as legally letting a biological male be known as a woman and letting them have the use of female toilets, changing rooms, apply for female only roles etc can be dangerous BUT surely there is a way to weed the predators out? How many men will pretend to want to be female, go through the rigmarola of changing their gender legally, seeing doctors and having counselling, changing their passport etc all to perv on some women in a changing room? Don't rapists and predators have little respect for women and it's all about control? They wouldn't want to be a female surely? They want to throw their testosterone about with control.

Huh? You don't need top do anything at all legally. Most things have gone self id. All a man has to do to access female facilities, hosp wards etc is utter some magic words. In the case of eg single sex communal facilities at a pool, then he only has to say the magic words if challenged, and girls and women are advised not to challenge as it's transphobic to do so.

This is why so many trans people are opting to keep their biological bits and live as the opposite sex and fighting for the rights they'd have as the opposite sex I think.

How is 'living as the opposite sex' different from living as your own sex? Men can't have women's rights because women's rights are for women. Why should women's sex based rights be sacrificed because some men want to be women?

BUT surely there is a way to weed the predators out?

If there was a way to weed the predators out we’d have less need for single sex spaces. Besides, if a man walks into the communal women’s changing room at my gym (no cubicles) I don’t care about his bona fides. I simply don’t want him in there. I wouldn’t want my dad, brother, nephew, uncles or any of my male friends in there either.

It's obviously a mental illness. People feel they are in the wrong body. I hope one day there will be medicine to treat it, like we medicate other mental disorders. Combined with therapy of course

^ this, this, this
How can it not be a mental health issue?

Don't rapists and predators have little respect for women
Personally I think a man being able to claim to be a woman while doing very very little to demonstrate their "womanhood" is the ultimate in disrespect.

E.g Shauna Smith www.eastidahonews.com/2016/10/transgender-woman-pleads-guilty-target-dressing-room-voyeurism/

AMAM I agree totally that the surgeries are ludicrously risky. I think all medical transition should be banned personally.

'Surely there is a way to weed out predators' - well - 98% of sexual offenders are men, while of course representing a tiny %of men overall. Men should be able to care for their own dependents in family changing provision. But the simplest way to exclude predators from being around women and children is to segregate by biological sex.

Psychiatrists don’t class gender dysphoria as a delusion though. It isn’t the same as anorexia. Wanting to be male or female isn’t the same as wanting to be so thin you’re dead.

Bariatric surgery and medical transition both have risks, one more so than the other but they’re both forms of harm reduction.

Gender dysphoria is clearly a psychiatric condition imo just because ICD changes it from a mental disorder to a sexual one doesn’t mean that’s the case - they admitted they did it to reduce stigma. No other reason.