How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

Fight against male violence and oppression. It’s not women who murder and beat up transwomen. Men need to start accepting gender non conforming men and treating them inclusively.

Treat everyone fairly and retain the sex-based provisions women have gained. Where there is no need for sex separation, you don't need it. Accept that everyone can be, do, emote, wear etc. what they feel like without reference to nebulous ideas of gender. Stand against actual violence. Raise the status of women across the entire world, and maintain good safeguarding practice so that everyone has good levels of protection.

This isn't really that hard. But to paraphrase Chesterton, the equitable solutions haven't been tried and found wanting, they've been ignored and not even tried.

With the same respect you treat anyone else.

What about in a more practical sense? Should we have women, men and gender neutral toilets? Where should trans women be treated in hospital etc... is the consensus that when there is no dedicated ‘trans’ provioson, trans women should use the male hospital ward, male prison etc...?

Ask men first. How do men do this, without giving away women's rights that aren't theirs to give away?

Trans people should be treated like people. No better, no worse.
Because they are people - not saints, not demons, not a homogeneous lump of victimhood.
Full members of society, but not elevated above women in terms of rights.
Entitled to their own boundaries, but not entitled to trample over the boundaries of others. Treated with respect but not deference.

Sex segregation exists for a reason. So yes it should be upheld.

Why should women have to find the answers?

This is a men's issue really.

Treat every individual with respect until they themselves prove otherwise the first time.

When I've had shit situations in life I've got help from unexpected sources, with indifferent and even hatred from sources you would expect to be helpful.

What SquishySquirmy said.

Sex based provision is based on sex. Yes, if someone is so tremendously psychologically distressed at being with their own sex, then sure, separate provision may well need to be made. But women's spaces are for women, for good reason. The line is clear, this is not a compromise on the table. Men in men's space, or third spaces.

How are trans-women being ostracised by pointing out they shouldn't be using female facilities

I don't feel particularly ostracised from society every time I walk passed the blokes loo to use the ladies.

With a deference offered to no other demographic, according to the "be nice or else" threat I just got from MNHQ.

Now if you're asking for my (more sensible and also more workable) opinion I'd go for Squirmy's approach. Just people, who have the same rights as other people, but who do not have the extra right to rewrite other people's sense of reality or steamroller their boundaries.

I would treat trans individuals with respect (as much as anyone else!)
As a group and with certain trans individuals I have issues.

And seriously, what is this 'how do we include trans people in society'? The same way we include everyone. Why would a male need to access female spaces just because he really felt he was a female, sincerely and truly, to be included in society?

Toilets are public plumbing provided for people's private plumbing. They are differentiated according to your plumbing arrangements.

People with willies should go where there are urinals.

I also think what SquishySquirmy said.

let's look at this the other way around coffeeplease16

men are not welcome in women's single sex spaces (toilets, hospital wards, changing rooms and so on). Their presence compromises women's privacy, dignity and safety. If certain men feel uncomfortable in men's toilets, changing rooms etc, that is their problem to solve

so, showing due respect to the privacy, dignity and safety of women, what would be your solution to what facilities these men should use?

@StealthPolarBear what issues do you have ‘as a group’? I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence, but this is not what trans people are campaigning for? More an unfortunate double effect?

You treat others as you would wish to be treated, obviously.

Campaigns should focus on wider issues, not on individuals.

Women losing their rights and being at risk of violence is an 'unfortunate double effect'? That's what you're going with?

Maybe the men folks could come up with the answer to this (without giving away women’s rights)?

Obviously Transwomen should be treated with as much respect as any other men and in men’s hospital wards, prisons, dormitories just like other men. Why not?

As for ‘gender neutral toilets’: they are and always have been gender neutral but separated on the basis of sex. That should remain as Biology is the only logical basis for separation. It doesn’t matter which of the various 100 genders a man identifies as he should still use the ‘men’s’ toilets as he is still part of the group with male biology and a male propensity for violence.

this is not what trans people are campaigning for? More an unfortunate double effect?

If that is the effect, which you admit, then it is what's being campaigned for.

Obviously Transwomen should be treated with as much respect as any other men and in men’s hospital wards, prisons, dormitories just like other men. Why not?

Exactly.