How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

Also I’m interested why trans campaigners aren’t campaigning for third spaces very much - does anyone know why this is?

Oh Coffee good timing. We had a v similar question / thread 9 days ago, even including how vehement the tone was! this will def help you catch up

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3692781-Middle-ground?pg=1

Because they consider third spaces emotionally invalidating, basically. Assigning them a third space indicates that as a society we don't really believe that they are the sex they're saying they are - which is true, but not something they want to hear.

Transwomen generally don't want third spaces. They want validation, which means using women's spaces.

What is the intention of trans people, coffee? The problem is that there are many individuals under that umbrella but the ones vocally lobbying for change are not interested in protecting sex based rights for women at all.

A lot of people on these boards started from a position of trying to be nice and accommodating and then realised the potential harm that could be caused by people who are less accommodating and well-intentioned.

Oh Coffee, please! Yes, we feel strongly about this issue. Why is that a problem for you? Why might we feel strongly I wonder? Well, there's the medication given to children which doesn't seem to have been tested properly and causes lifelong effects...that makes us vehemently upset and produces vehemently protective feelings in us mothers (mums tend to care about all children, not only their own), then there's the dilapidation of womens' sports, that makes us vehemently upset too, as it is so incredibly unfair! I could go on but these are examples of the context in which we respond so vehemently to the idea of welcoming a certain subsection of men into our female spaces.

Why does 'trans' always equal 'transwomen' and 'society' always equals 'womens' rooms where disrobing, voiding, stemming menstrual flow, lactation and/or sleeping are likely to occur?

Is the greatest concern A or B: a) anyone self identifying as trans can then invade women’s spaces (e.g. Bob pretending to be trans because he wants to hurt women)... b) or that we just don’t want trans men in women’s spaces full stop. Personally I don’t have too much of a problem with genuinely trans people being in women’s spaces but worry about policies which would allow any man in women’s spaces - but obviously there is no way to police whether someone is really ‘trans’ e.g had severe gender dysphoria so is probably best to create third spaces where possible. So my core objection would be ‘a’... wondering if this is the case for others?

@FloridaOrange I don’t mind people feeling strongly.. but you should be able to explain your viewpoint without resorting to mocking others if it’s all that surely

Above should read trans women not trans men

Trans men are female and welcome in women's spaces.

Here's Helen Belcher on Newsnight telling us that expecting transwomen to use third spaces is like segregation.

Belcher is asked if Belcher would want to use separate 'trans' spaces. Answer: "No, my identity is as a woman".

Start at about 18:30 to hear this.

Oh if it's alright for you Coffee then that's all that matters?

[btw my analogy was just trying to be an analogy for dignity and privacy, not an analogy in terms of genetics. I understand chromosomes, sexes etc. sorry if it failed.]

Men who say they identify as women are not an issue for women to have to solve: they are an issue for their fellow men to come to terms with.

Women's spaces must remain women's spaces, for women's safety, dignity and privacy.

Coffee you do realise that transwomen have the same sex crime statistics as other men? You're happy with that? Well many of us vehemently are not.

@FloridaOrange - no I realise that it’s not going to be the same for everyone nor do I think I speak for everyone.. I was just laying out my opinion as asked to do up thread

I don’t want any men in women’s space. And ‘genuine transwomen’ can also be sexual predators or violent men (they are on average just as violent as other men). You can’t disown transwomen and say they aren’t genuine just because they behave in ways that you dislike.

Regardless of the question of safety, women also value privacy and dignity. And Women’s sport.

(Happy to share intimate spaces with them I mean)

coffee, you're liable to bump up against some friction if you tell the women here how to express themselves. Just sayin'

I'm afraid I will not bend even for the 'genuinely dysphoric' when it comes to female spaces and rights etc. As far as I'm concerned, the 'honour system', where we all rather embarrassedly accepted the odd bloke in the ladies because we felt sorry for them or we were a bit non plussed (or maybe scared) was actually a proper trojan horse to soften us up. I'm a hoary old woman now, in my head at least, I'm actually much younger than that, but the older I get, the more I realize that female socialization has fucked over so many women's ability to set a firm boundary and say a clear no, and that means that no, I will not be conceding any more ground on behalf of my sisters. You can feel as sorry as you like for dysphoric men. I will not be saying yes to them in women's spaces and being given women's rights.

Thanks @OldCrone interesting interview. If anyone can recommend any podcasts, particularly focussing ‘the Mumsnet’ view (sure this will offend some people...not sure how to label it) on this topic I would be great full!

Make more noise I think is a podcast that rings a bell. I'm not sure. Not really a podcast sort, I'm afraid.

there is no way to police whether someone is really ‘trans’

Exactly. So if you let one man in, you have to let them all in. From the fully transitioned transsexual, who you could almost believe to be a woman, to the beardy bloke who says he has a 'female gender identity'. It's all of them or none of them. Otherwise, where do you draw the line?

Mumsnet has great number of views

Hear hear Be More Magdalen

@BeMoreMagdalen interesting point about socialisation.. I can think of circumstances where I would be uncomfortable with trans women being in that space but I would feel that there comfort triumphs my discomfort because life is harder for them and they don’t easily belong any where... and other options might result in violence for them etc... maybe just socialisation

If is not women’s job to make men’s lives easier