Page 2 | How should we treat trans people?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 23/09/2019 20:00

this is not what trans people are campaigning for? More an unfortunate double effect?

Would you also use this turn of phrase other choices throught history which have lead to a group losing rights?

BeMoreMagdalen · 23/09/2019 20:01

Well yes. I presume that men's provision isn't like the rowing deck on a slave galley ship, so I'm sure that trans people with male bodies will be treated perfectly well.

NicolaStart · 23/09/2019 20:02

I am working with a group of Trans people at the moment and having a great time.

I am a feminist and fight the patriarchy, but have men as colleagues, friends and family.
We all have friends who are of a different sexuality who may fancy is but we will never reciprocate and / or vice versa.

I am gender critical but not anti anyone living their life Trans -gender. That’s up to them. I defend their right to be Trans without being harassed , they respect that my identity is with my sex. We, you know, behave normally and not like dicks.

titchy · 23/09/2019 20:02

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence,

How about no policy changes and no increased risk to women?

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 23/09/2019 20:02

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence, but this is not what trans people are campaigning for?

the normal reaction of decent human beings upon finding that their actions are directly harming others is to stop.

just a thought

PEkithelp · 23/09/2019 20:03

I work with a trans man. I treat him with courtesy and politeness and use his preferred pronouns, but I do challenge any sexist comments (sadly he has adopted a toxic male worldview). I believe he is a victim of poor advice and (from what he has told me) a shockingly abusive childhood.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/09/2019 20:04

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too? Just call those women hysterical harpies who're trying to genocide us and carry on as you were!

BeMoreMagdalen · 23/09/2019 20:06

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too?

Quite. Massive boundary violation from unnecessary action

brendansbuddy · 23/09/2019 20:06

as a group surely refers to the multiple threatening, violent behaviours of trans activists. I haven't seen on the news the 'other side' making death threats, assaulting people trying to exercise free speech, intimidating, following them home bla bla, check out beautifully-collated list on the other thread here. The 'unfortunate' double effect you cite somewhat understates the risk to women; the campaigners' disregard for the privacy, safety and dignity of women, exercised with such aggressive repression of challenge, is further assault on women and free speech. So as a 'group', they are increasingly seen as intolerant (ironic huh?) and trampling with pleasure on other human rights.

FamilyOfAliens · 23/09/2019 20:09

I am a feminist and fight the patriarchy, but have men as colleagues, friends and family.

Why is there a “but” in that sentence?

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 23/09/2019 20:11

What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

And what do you think OP?

It would be nice to know what you think

(It might not be nice...obviously)

Knewmee · 23/09/2019 20:11

You can’t build trans rights by lying about basic biological facts and taking away women’s rights, even as an ‘unfortunate double effect’ or whatever that comical wording was.
You may be able to get away with it for a bit, until people catch on, but it’s just not sustainable.
The Middle Ages are over, and women have come to expect privacy, dignity, safety, and the right to say no to unwanted penis.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/09/2019 20:13

Is there some other sort of feminist who has no male family members, and who doesn't work with any men? Does she live in Themiscyra?

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 23/09/2019 20:15

Is there some other sort of feminist who has no male family members, and who doesn't work with any men

Wouldn’t that be impossible

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 23/09/2019 20:15

I'd like to raise the speed limit on my local road to 60. It is currently 20 and that stops people getting to where they are going quickly and causes congestion. So 60 it is then.

I know there might be RTA deaths but that is not what I am campaigning for- more an unfortunate side effect (you meant side effect not 'double effect' right?) - so I can't be blamed for that.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/09/2019 20:17

Parthenogenesis? I mean, I didn't think humans could do that.

Seriously, all feminists have men in their lives in one way or another. This is not some sort of special and amazing thing that sets one apart from those other terrifying harridans.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 23/09/2019 20:21

How should we treat trans people?

Exactly the same way we treat everyone else.

Like everyone else they can use the appropriate facilities for their sex as determined at conception and observed at birth.

Like everyone else they can enter into heterosexual relationships with members of the opposite sex or homosexual ones with members of their own sex providing they are consensual and involve no deception.

Like everyone else they can hold whatever unsubstantiated beliefs, such as a belief in disembodied gendered souls, and accept that no one else is required to share their unsubstantiated belief.

Like everyone else they can express their beliefs, eg through use of wrong sex pronouns, and accept that others are not required to play along.

Like everyone else they can dress how they like within the bounds of law and company policy if they are employed by another party.

Like everyone else if they struggle with their mental health they should be entitled to appropriate therapy.

No treating them worse than others, no giving them special privileges.

youkiddingme · 23/09/2019 20:22

But ShesDressedInBlackAgain it might be better to change the units in which speed is measured so my 60 becomes your 20.
If you did this before there were any meetings held for 'local objectors' this would probably help your cause.

BeMoreMagdalen · 23/09/2019 20:24

Double effect is a phrase used by Catholic ethicists when discussing things like euthanasia occurring because of using pain relief to lethal effect. Double effect is a phrase that indicates it's an accepted consequence, but the other goal of pain relief outweighs the hastening of death. A 'side effect' would be better understood by most as an unintended corollary.

So double effect is an interesting phrase for coffeeplease to use, because it indicates that the loss of women's rights and safety is of lesser importance than the end goal of trans privileges.

BeMoreMagdalen · 23/09/2019 20:27

Sorry, meant to finish the thought -women's rights are not just of lesser importance, they actually part of the goal, albeit a secondary effect.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 23/09/2019 20:30

What a brilliant and respectful thread, with points clearly set out. I'm sure it's just what the OP hoped for.

Datun · 23/09/2019 20:34

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence, but this is not what trans people are campaigning for?

Eh?

It's the only thing they're campaigning for.

Giving men, any man, access to all women's changing rooms, toilets, prisons, mental health wards, rape refugees, homeless shelters, shortlists, awards, sports and lesbians.

Give me one, single, solitary transactivist who is campaigning for anything else.

MrGHardy · 23/09/2019 20:36

Like you would any other human being.

But stop eroding sex based rights.

It is that simple.

There is no big thing here. No "how to treat" them.

fidgetspinner555 · 23/09/2019 20:36

Why are you asking women to sort out a men's problem? It's men who kill and attack trans people. Go on a mans board and tell them to sort their shit out.

Qcng · 23/09/2019 20:42

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too? Just call those women hysterical harpies who're trying to genocide us and carry on as you were!

Very much so. But more realistically,

Oh noes, our campaign just happened to result in a massive violation of women's boundaries, which women told us was happening and was a problem for them, but hey, what can we do, it's not as if we could possibly take their needs into account too? Just call those women TERFS who deserve to be raped to death, killed in a grease fire, and carry on!

Because this is actually what is happening right now, to actual women. Massive, industrial scale abuse of women.

Thank you "harmless trans people".