How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

facing more discrimination than women in almost every aspect of life?

Nonsense. For self ID trans women, which are the majority, everyone looking at them knows they are male. They do not experience misogyny. They retain many of the privileges they always have had as males.

They may experience what amounts to homophobia. As Dan Savage always says, homophobia is misogyny’s little brother - sexist men are afraid of expressing femininity, because that would make them less than human (what they consider women). Thus they are repulsed by gay men and feminine men. They also hate men who are in any way weak or less able.

Maybe you mean passing trans women? Well if they truely pass they experience as much discrimination as any woman - not more.

in terms of finding a job for example an employer would be less likely to hire a trans women over a women

Depends on the job. If it’s software engineering in Silicon Valley they’ll hire the trans woman first every time. Then slap each other on the back for improving representation of both “women” in coding AND “LGBT”

Why would an employer be less likely to employ a male born person than a female one? In what context? Because they were concerned the trans person would have a baby if they were of a certain age? Because they had school age children and would have expectations on them due to that? Perhaps because they took time out to bear and raise a young family and lost a lot of career position? Stuff like that?

also not all men think this

Of course not all men think that way, it goes without saying. But if men as a whole thought that women should be paid the same as women for jobs of equal skill and/or value then it just wouldn't be the case, and wouldn't ever have been the case, that men are often paid more than women for doing an equivalent job.

Sorry, that should read that women should be paid the same as men.

coffee, the power play is the same power play there is all over the world. There is hardly any society on earth that hasn't managed to end up with the male class in the power position. It's the default. We live with default male. Get a hold of Invisible Women to see how pervasive and disadvantaging this is for women. Fact is, it's a rare man who will be happy to relinquish his advantage.

Even if it were true, and it's not, it would not then follow that women should give up our spaces, or that this is our problem to solve. The problem is men, who make life difficult for other men who for whatever reason they deem insufficiently manly. They are therefore the ones who need to change.

I’m also genuinely interested why people think trans women wouldn’t have a harder deal than women... facing more discrimination than women in almost every aspect of life?

Because they can build up a career in a male dominated industry then in middle age 'become' a woman and suddenly become lauded for 'making it' in an industry that is hostile to women.

Because they can go into women's toilets and changing rooms safe in the knowledge that most women will be too afraid of them to ask them to leave.

Because they can demand that other people bow to their will and pretend to believe that they have in fact changed sex, on threat of having that person fired from their job and possibly prosecuted for hate crimes.

None of that (and those are just a few examples of many) implies to me that this is a marginalised group.

Personally I don’t have too much of a problem with genuinely trans people being in women’s spaces

Personally I don't either, but then I am not a small girl, a traumatised woman or a member of a religious group that says I cannot use the same changing room as a man. All those people, and they are way more than the number of transwomen, would have their freedoms severely restricted and would not have the option of using the men's changing room either.

I think the key thing to remember here is that just because you, personally, would be OK with something that doesn't give you the right to impose it on other women who are not OK with it, or on girls.

And how on earth do you know who is genuinely trans? Some men are naturally petite with fine features and can sort of pass. Some are built like ten-ton trucks with faces like the back-end of a bus but could still have gender dysphoria.

Honestly, why do women have to give up all our rights to treat this one particular mental illness?

Telepathy, obviously.

Or you just believe what any given male says to you, because what could possibly go wrong with that?

OP, if you genuinely think that women are the power players in this, please take a brief look at this recent blog by Lily Maynard, the mother of a recently trans desisting daughter.

lilymaynard.com/the-invisible-women-why-are-so-many-women-scared-to-speak-out-about-gender-politics/

OP, your info sounds quite out of date.

Many HR professionals in my industry prefer TW over women (not “officially” of course - that would be discriminatory).

TW tick the “diversity” box while not (in most cases) having primary responsibility for children - both seen as beneficial from an HR perspective.

Why would you assume TW’s employment prospects are worse off than those of women?

How do we treat trans people? With the same respect as anyone else, with specialised provision where appropriate. E.g. for those in prison - with a dedicated trans wing.

I do find it interesting that women are happy that transmen share female spaces, becuase I have also seen IRL that men are not happy that transwomen share male spaces. Surely the question should therefor be addressed at a Male dominated group?

How can you say all women are happy to share women's spaces with transmen? On what basis do you make that assumption?

Sure, on this board that's what people say because they can't really say anything else can they? If they say transmen should use men's spaces then they can't say trans women can't use women's spaces.

Do you think we actually want to say something different, Decomposing? If so, why?

I wouldn't speak for all women because I am not all women but I personally am fine sharing spaces with transmen. There can be an initial moment of WTF but then you take a second look and listen to the voice and the sex becomes clear.

In theory, gender-critical women on this board ARE happy to share single-sex spaces with all females, transmen included. However, testosterone is such an effective masculiniser that transmen who have been on it for a long time aren’t easy to pick out by the typical woman on the street, so sharing single-sex spaces with these transmen is problematic.

Why do people always raise Trans Men as though it’s some kind of a gotcha?

I thought TM want to use male bathrooms - and since they don’t pose a risk to males, why shouldn’t they?

People aren’t arguing for a strict male/ female binary provision.

They are arguing, mostly, for female spaces - where male people cannot go.

But yes, if TM want to use them they are welcome of course (my understanding though is that they don’t want to, and find it insulting, so we should respect that).

trans women in men’s spaces would be very unsafe for trans women in terms of violence

So you say men are at risk from other men in men’s spaces, and your solution is have men in women’s spaces so women are at risk from men too?

Also, as you seem to have a distorted view of risk: transwomen are pretty much the safest demographic in terms of risk from murder: they have a lower rate of murder of any other group worldwide (even in the Favelas of Brazil). In the UK there are more trans murderers than trans people murdered.

I thought TM want to use male bathrooms - and since they don’t pose a risk to males, why shouldn’t they?

I'm not sure they do - I've read more than one article by transmen who use the womens toilets, because they don't feel safe in the mens (and don't have the right equipment - because they are not the right sex).

We've worked previously on the honour system, and TBH I trust transmen rather more to be considerate and honest, and yes, I think that just like the rest of us, you can generally tell the sex of trans people (even though yes, testosterone can make some big changes, height stays the same, and voice isn't always changed as much as you might think)

trans women in men’s spaces would be very unsafe for trans women in terms of violence

In what possible way is it acceptable to put 50% of the population at greater risk with no affect on the 1%'s risk? (since if men can come in the ladies, they are now effectively mixed sex, so the risk to transwomen continues)

What would actually benefit us all is for transwomen to use men's toilets, with the support and protection of all the men who aren't planning to beat them up, to widen the bandwidth of being male, make femininity acceptable to them, and possibly as a lovely 'double effect' reduce general male violence!

How should we treat transwhat? Sexual or gender? Big difference.

even though yes, testosterone can make some big changes, height stays the same, and voice isn't always changed as much as you might think

Also, like Shakira says, hips don't lie.

It’s all in the shoulders. Just watch people walk.