How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

To answer the OPs original question - the ideal is probably third spaces. Which isn't what many trans activists are asking for, but is what's best for society as a whole.

If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society?
Trans people include transmen who have a vagina too. Transmen are welcome to use women's spaces as much as other women "and people with vaginas"
The stigma of "being outed" needs to stop.
People need to be proud to be trans.
Trans people need to stop hiding behind a false identity.

How can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

Rights vs feelings.
Why are the rights of women being placed on a par with trans people not feeling ostracised?
Go and ask a trans board how they are going to protect the rights of women. How are they going to ensure women’s rights are upheld?

I've decided I'm kind of done being civil, though. Third spaces. End of. The poor oppressed trans people are currently intimidating women meeting to talk about their own rights by banging and kicking the windows of the venue while the police force charged with keeping the peace just shrug. Maybe the coppers think it's all just an unfortunate double effect. Jaysus.

^ by encouraging trans people to be proud of their persona.

Basically it's up to men how to deal with their spaces, but for women what's best is women and transmen in women's spaces.

I would treat an XY trans person in the same way I would treat any other XY person. XY trans people should have the same rights as any other XY people.

I would treat an XX trans person in the same way I would treat any other XX person. XX trans people should have the same rights as any other XX people.

HTH.

(And this is the sort of silly post you get when apparently "civilised discussion" is a synonym for "mandatory denial of material reality".)

Best result, an additional, mixed sex space for everyone and anyone, while keeping women's only for women only.

Mind you they had that at Hampstead ponds before, but now all they have are three for men only/mixed and none for women.

Result for patriarchy/misogyny! Thanks again, harmless trans people.

Note that Lang is a person who can speak very clearly indeed, but who is being forced into linguistic contortions that make it harder to understand what she's trying to communicate. Consider who this benefits.

It isn't women. It isn't even most men, and it certainly isn't children.

With the amount of clout & money transactivist organisations like Stonewall have, they could easily be campaigning for anyone who identifies as trans to be safe & respected in their own spaces. Whether that’s among their own sex or a third space.

But instead Ruth Hunt blithely announces that ‘men will always rape women’ so there’s clearly no point in us trying to keep them out of our toilets, changing rooms, prisons or rape shelters.

Tsunamis will always happen, so there's no point building sea walls.

But, you know, if a tsunami was a sentient being who was consciously choosing to hurt other people.

I do find it interesting that women are happy that transmen share female spaces, becuase I have also seen IRL that men are not happy that transwomen share male spaces. Surely the question should therefor be addressed at a Male dominated group?

Very very gently as we don't want to upset them in case they lose it and smash us in the face?

Is that the screenshot you are looking for?

What sort of bollocks thread is this? Treat people as people, and segregate by sex, until the real and current danger of male [xy] on female [xx] violence isn't a threat any more.

If 'trans' is to be celebrated in any way, it should be that XY transpeople are celebrated for widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a man, and treated by other men with the same respect each would want for himself.

Why do I get the feeling I'm going to be repeating this point to new posters over and over?

I can understand that policy changes leave women more at risk of violence, but this is not what trans people are campaigning for? More an unfortunate double effect?

They're campaigning to let one of my rapists have free access to all the public toilets and changing rooms I might happen to use.

And you call it an unfortunate double effect. I presume you mean side effect, OP. Thanks for making it clear that you think my rights and sanity and human right to participate in public life are worth nothing compared to the poor tortured souls who end up raping people because they're just so fucking feminine.

Get some empathy, mate. Or would you rather everyone who's been traumatised by male sexual violence just shut themselves away in the attic forever?

As for how we treat other trans people... I'd suggest we treat them as human beings with some psychological difficulties. The ones who never had a penis are welcome to share my spaces.

Your question is for Trans people to work out, we are not here to solve your problems, we’ve got enough to do thanks very much.

Like everyone else. Third space if appropriate, not a big deal. Protect from violent men, always a big deal.

I'd treat transwomen the same way I treat other men - warily, with an acceptance that all humans have human rights, but that males don't come with an extra helping of 'rights to trample over women's needs and preferences'.

There are some lovely males out there, of all kinds of gender expressions, and when I find out they are lovely - properly so, in behaviour, not just in words - I may drop the wariness and get to know them.

I think the best way to accomodate gender-variant males is for men to expand their concept of maleness.

Please don't flame me I'm trying to learn.
I've never knowingly met a transwoman, but have met a few FTM transmen. They truly believe they are male, but born in the wrong body, the medication, and top and bottom surgery they've put themselves through is horrendous and gruelling (IMO) just to be accepted. I suppose this is different from MTF trans people though.
I do think a third space is the best option for the safety of women and the trans people at risk of violence.

My issue here is I can’t see why trans women should have additional rights compared to other groups of vulnerable male humans. Weak men, effeminate men, openly gay men, men with certain mental health issues are ALL at elevated risk of assault from certain predatory and violent men.

Shouldn’t we be asking how to help and protect these men, as well as Transwomen ? Why do transwomen get more rights than other members of their sex who are similarly disadvantaged?

BTW my iPhone has just decided to start AUTOCORRECTing transwoman to “trans woman”

There is no need for gender segregation. If segregation is warranted, it should be by sex. So as a society, we can continue to review where women and men need to be treated differently or provisioned for separately.

Women need laws that reflect their role in the reproductive process.

Society does not need rules that restrict who is allowed to wear dresses or pants.

Reviewing norms really isn’t that hard and benefits everyone.

In those cases where separation is warranted, transgender individuals should be accommodated with other members who share their biological sex.

Interesting question if you come back.

How do you think we should include all people in our society? What is your ideal? How can we protect the rights of women without ostracising male and female trans people from our society?

You need to re-think your acceptable ‘collateral damage’ POV because that just totally undermines your aim or exposes your bias. I don’t have enough data to decide which yet.

Interesting..I’m asking this question because I was genuinely interested in the responses, surely before you accept an argument (or not) you want too see how it withstands some probing, and from reading threads I genuinely wasn’t sure what the response would be. To clarify.. I wasn’t suggesting that the damage to women’s rights is an acceptable side effect - I don’t think it is! I was more clumsily trying to say that I don’t think that that is the intention of trans people - not saying that makes it right. I’m not sure what the ideal solution is, I would say heading in the direction of more dedicated spaces for trans people, I’m not sure about labelling it as a ‘mans problem’ more of an everyone’s problem in building an inclusive society. For someone interested in learning more about this I thought the tone of many posts could have been a bit less vehement

I've been trying for a while to think of an analogy, and I finally came up with this one when I visited a very elderly relative in a home.

There were a couple of dozen very elderly and frail people in this home, all with their own lockable room. But even so, what if a young person, a student say, decided it was out of order that he couldn't live there? It's very expensive but never mind. Imagine how inappropriate that would be, to have a young student marching down the corridor while you, a very elderly person, limped along on your zimmer frame. Young staff are trained btw and it's not the same as being in a peer group of residents.

You would feel vulnerable, embarassed, perhaps, by issues affecting the elderly body. This is because young people are (usually) stronger than you, and don''t have those elderly body issues (and there are very many).

I would feel vulnerable and embarassed by sharing tolilets etc with men. This is because men are (usually) stronger than me, and don't have my woman's body issues (which are ever changing).

Not sure you analogy really works. A young man is still a man, just as an old man is, and an old man was once a young man. A transwoman is not a woman and never has been.

When we talk about “including” people in society, we generally mean they should have equal opportunities for education and employment, not suffer disadvantage in such things as housing and healthcare and see representations of themselves in the mainstream media.

We don’t mean such people should take precedence over everyone else, except for instances (such as shortlists and selection), where systematic oppression has denied people opportunity.

Inclusion doesn’t mean creating a special class of people we all have to be super-nice to. Being a member of a minority group doesn’t stop you being a sexual predator, incompetent or an arsehole. It doesn’t mean other people need to go out of the way to be especially nice to you; it doesn’t mean they should give up their rights, (which is different from privilege) to you; it doesn’t mean you’re excused from following the same rules that apply in civil society.

On a personal level my answer to how I treat trans people would be: with the same courtesy I try and show to everyone, but with the same caution I apply to all unknown men, in the case of transwomen.

I will say that the statistics about the number of transwomen who are in prison for sexual offences, and the threatening behaviour, and display of kink, written and actual, which seems to be a hallmark of trans activists, means I’d treat a transwomen unknown to me with considerable reservation.