How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

I would worry through that my discomfort might just be prejudice... the same way that you might feel uncomfortable if a hooded teenager approaches you in the street...playing into stereotypes that are certain type of person is more dangerous that another. Not sure if that makes sense

Why do you think there are women’s spaces in the first place?

I was more clumsily trying to say that I don’t think that that is the intention of trans people

From what I have seen/read, it is simply not a considération.

If someone has severe gender dysphoria then as a society I believe we should be treating that. And by treating it I mean treating it as a mental health problem, the way we treat people who have other delusional thoughts. Not by indulging those thoughts.

Like so many women, I used to think 'be nice' and now having seen what a violent and misogynistic movement the trans rights movement is, I no longer feel that sympathy. I don't believe that it's possible to 'feel like a woman' because you can't feel like something when you have no idea how that feels.

So as a society I think that trans people should have the same rights as anyone else in that they should be able to hold down a job and have a home, access healthcare and financial services etc. But I don't think they should have additional rights, such as the right to compete in a sporting category where they have an unfair advantage, or to change in a changing room where their presence compromises the dignity and privacy of the majority of people using that space, or to apply for grants/training programmes/awards that are designed to enhance the opportunities of a group that they don't actually belong to. At the moment, trans rights campaigns revolve around trans people having more rights than others, not equal rights.

coffee, yep. That's a socialized response. Everyone feels it to certain extent in the modern age, but women have it ingrained from the minute they're born. It's what helped Ted Bundy get women off guard so he could kidnap and kill them. I know that sounds tres melodramatic, but this is reality, and this here board is FWR, and as feminists, we will always prioritize women over men. That's quite a bracing shock in a world where women are trained to defer to everyone else. But once you get a hold of it, it tilts your world.

but I would feel that there comfort triumphs my discomfort because life is harder for them

I feel the exact opposite. I don't believe life is harder for men dressed as women than it is for women. Not by a long way.

playing into stereotypes that are certain type of person is more dangerous that another.

Men are more dangerous than women, statistically. This isn't just stereotypes.

OP, you haven't responded to any of the posters suggesting you take it up with men.

Autumn... because I don’t find this a realistic response...

coffee, why don't you find it a realistic response?

Can I suggest it might be that socialization thing again? Some men feel they are women. Why would you assume this is a female problem?

Because men are less likely to care about women’s spaces being invaded anyway or if posters mean (which i assume they do) leave them for the men to deal with - trans women in men’s spaces would be very unsafe for trans women in terms of violence. I think it’s possible to care about women’s rights and trans people - utilising third spaces - saying just chuck them in with the men is the same as saying who gives a shit IMO

Also it’s not like women only care about women’s problem and men only care about men’s problem... by the same argument men could say who cares about equality of wages for women, our concern is that men earn as much as possible

trans women in men’s spaces would be very unsafe for trans women in terms of violence.

But transwomen in women's spaces putting women at risk of violence is fine? Why is that?

by the same argument men could say who cares about equality of wages for women, our concern is that men earn as much as possible

That's exactly what they do say.

I would feel that there comfort triumphs my discomfort because life is harder for them

It doesn't, and as a class compared to women as a class, it isn't.

Isabelle..not what I am saying and also not all men think this

coffee, you're missing the point of those comments. The reason single sex spaces exist is because women as a class are at significant risk from men as a class, due to our differing biology. We are at a significant disadvantage in a number of ways due to that. That puts men in a more powerful position, as a class. Therefore, if one of their number struggles with an issue like dysphoria, why would the assumption ge for the less powerful group ie, women, to sort it out?

We've nearly said third spaces. We're the only ones who've ever said it. Because this has never been about trans people, I'm afraid. It's always been a power play to underline that women are simply not allowed to set their own boundaries.

If anyone feels that someone else's discomfort trumps theirs then I suggest some therapy and possible a book on building your self esteem.

That should read nearly all said.

I’m also genuinely interested why people think trans women wouldn’t have a harder deal than women... facing more discrimination than women in almost every aspect of life?

Treat them exactly as they are.

Which is to say, as every other person when sex is irrelevant.
And as their actual sex when sex is relevant.

coffee, are you in earnest? Seriously? Why do you think a man presenting himself as a female would have a harder time than an actual woman?

@BeMoreMagdalen maybe I agree with you all then.. a power play by who though? Men in general?

Yes genuinely.. in terms of finding a job for example an employer would be less likely to hire a trans women over a women