Hey FWR - "We need both sides to live with some compromise "

[pombear]

Warning: This thread will spontaneously combust after 10 posts!

As part of this 'complex subject' a poster started a thread to highlight that a trans activist appeared to have posted a twitter gif that implied they were 'dancing on the grave' of a prominent feminist who sadly died today.

The thread was deleted with this message:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

Civil and constructive debate?

Women point out destructive and uncivil debate from a trans rights activist,

Women also point out the biological sex of this activist.

Women are deleted and schooled in how they must refer to this destructive and uncivil 'debater.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Women - shut up, compromise, live with the 'contradiction' (in this case, does it mean you must only talk about the person who is shitting all over women's spaces and rights if we use the right pronoun?)

As all have said so eloquently already. (Also good to see Kittens popping back.)

I would also love to know in what ways MNHQ think that gloating over the death of a young woman from cancer contributes to "civil and constructive debate".

Oh, wait, do the rules only apply to one side of that "debate"? May as well just be honest and come out and say so then.

Unbelievable . Furious and sad that we cannot mourn a good woman without being accused of not being fair and nuanced. There is no discussion here. This man was disgusting and should not be showed any deference. The mods are wrong and should be sacked . When are our hurt feelings going to be recognised?

Women aren't allowed to have feelings, apparently, as it interferes with our primary job of taking care of other people's feelings.

Germ his name was Rhys.

Rhys is a nasty man.

Yeah, I'm about done with this shit too MN. How dare you tell us to compromise with this repellant person, who is gloating over our grief. Ban me if you like, I don't think I'm coming back anyway.

I'm not planning on going anywhere - that's surely what the monitors want, to shut down an open forum where ordinary women stand up to misogynist shit in its many and varied forms.

That thread is back up.

I totally get the impulse to leave, but that’s what they want. Please stay, not for the board but for other users.

That thread is back up.

Is it? I can't see it.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Some contradiction? War is peace? Men are women?

I don't think so.

I'm not planning on going anywhere - that's surely what the monitors want, to shut down an open forum where ordinary women stand up to misogynist shit in its many and varied forms.

Yep, not going till I'm frogmarched out. I understand why many brilliant feminists have left mumsnet, distressed by the injustice and unfairness of what many of us recognise as coercive control.

It's tragic that mumsnet is loosing so many core posters, brilliant, compassionate, articulate women. But each woman who leaves to protect her sanity leaves a legacy of lurkers who have been convinced by her writing. We're like the hydra, cut one down and two take her place.

Now that the thread has been reinstated, can we please have an explanation as to why it was taken down, and reassurances that the "compromise" is not always going to be expected from one side of the debate?

The GIF thread is still deleted. MNHQ won't put it back up, they will just go quiet and hope that our lady brains forget about it very soon and we start talking about fishfingers instead.

I think this site doesn't really like women (adult human females) very much. Not as anything more than mindless consumers, anyway. I think they actually delight in human suffering (DV, abuse etc), as women sharing and supporting each other (a very female trait) on here just means more advertising revenues. They don't actually want us to talk about anything meaningful and serious that might actually empower us.. That's why the big issues of the day (transcult, Brexit) are confined to obscure pages. ROLL ON PARKING DISPUTES AND KITTEN PICTURES, WOMEN, KNOW YOUR PLACE.

Isn’t this it?

Oh sorry I must have missed the earlier one

No. The deleted thread was called McKinnon Twitter - Dancing on Grave GIF

It is still deleted and contains the following weaselly words from MNHQ:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

A male born public figure with a history of tweeting about "their" penis and making threats to women (to e.g., die in a grease fire) celebrates the death of a young woman, and yet, for Mumsnet, there is a "position to be squared" apparently. Yes, all very Trumpian, there's good people on both sides, no doubt. Well done, enjoy your erasure and all that.

Yes, I think the OP of that thread had no idea whatever that there had been an earlier one, it's certainly not a TAAT.

I've only been on mumsnet about a year.

And until now think I hadn't quite grasped the mind game of the guidelines.

How can you have an honest discussion about an issue when you are told you cant express what you think because it breaches guidelines.

And irrespective of social convention (which are never the same anywhere in the world) why should mumsnet decide which social convention we should observe.

We are dealing with the reality that no one can change their sex. Fact.

Words that accurately reflect ones sex are not an insult.

This is just double speak to try and make out that innocent people (and it is nearly always women) are guilty bg saying the words we all know accurately reflect a situation are an insult.

You might choose in a face to face situation to be "polite". But this isn't a face to face situation.

This is about a man who is known to bully women being exposed as a completely worthless piece of shit for posting an deliberate denigrating comment on the death of a young woman.

If he ever had any right to be treated "politely" he has lost it.

And if the worry is that MN might be sued, can you imagine anyone that is going to support his hurt feelings set against the despicable actions he has made.

If this is about MN having to take sides in this instance there is only one side.

And that is in respecting the dignity and rights of a young woman who has died tragically early.

Please MN. Show you have some decency.

Are you really going to prioritise some use of language over showing respect and support for Magdalen Berns?

Here's my guess. MNHQ is sick of the uppity women and wants FWR to disappear.

These discussions will just pop up in other sections of the board though. We aren't going to disappear.

The uppity women are this site's USP though. Without them why would anyone want to buy ad space?

Leaving isn't a dramatic threat, I'm just weary and not sure I have any more to give here.

I have seen so many women just squeezed to the limit. It's a constant drip drip of compromise here, be a little kinder there, oh we'll be so gracious and allow you some freedom here if you behave yourself but it always ends the same way. We get silenced. We get banned. We get shut down. We have our work deleted and our voices no platformed. We get gaslit. We get punched. We get squeezed into an ever smaller ball, while being howled at about all the space we dare to take up. When we are dead they dance on our graves.
And mumsnet plays the tune and polishes their dancing shoes for them, while forcing me to be thankful that I'm allowed to be in the audience - if I'm quiet enough and clap at the right time.

It must be asked - if the moderators on Mumsnet are prey for male spite - then where does that leave women?

A lot of traffic comes to MN through FWR so I don't think it likely MN wants to close it. It appears that what they want is for the content providers who post on FWR to be nicer to the abusive males and the mods. Go well.